It's a rethinkingourselves bonus meeting! Our next meeting is next sunday, September 13, at Catmints Cafe.
Angela is the moderator.
Actually, the reason we're doing the next meeting so soon is because it's a follow-up topic. We talked about privilege this week, and how not recognizing the privilege of being the race in power makes it difficult for white people to make the world a better place. We also talked about how not recognizing their own privilege makes it difficult for men to make the world a better place.
How does culture make us who we are?
I've been doing some reading on privilege and racism, and what the cultural markers of being white are. I think that these articles could form the basis for an interesting discussion on how culture works to form individuals in society. It would be interesting to translate these ideas from an American context to a Taiwanese context.
Links below:
White Supremacy Culture
This is a list of characteristics of white supremacy culture that show up in our organizations. Culture is powerful precisely because it is so present and at the same time so very difficult to name or identify. The characteristics listed below are damaging because they are used as norms and standards without being pro-actively named or chosen by the group. They are damaging because they promote white supremacy thinking. Because we all live in a white supremacy culture, these characteristics show up in the attitudes and behaviors of all of us -- people of color and white people. Therefore, these attitudes and behaviors can show up in any group or organization, whether it is white-led or predominantly white or people of color-led or predominantly people of color.
Social class quiz
Do you have privilege? Several quizzes to help you understand your social class.
www.antiracistparent.com
Raising children to be aware of their white privilege is more than making them aware that there are other races in the world. It requires being a different kind of white person.
Links below:
White Supremacy Culture
This is a list of characteristics of white supremacy culture that show up in our organizations. Culture is powerful precisely because it is so present and at the same time so very difficult to name or identify. The characteristics listed below are damaging because they are used as norms and standards without being pro-actively named or chosen by the group. They are damaging because they promote white supremacy thinking. Because we all live in a white supremacy culture, these characteristics show up in the attitudes and behaviors of all of us -- people of color and white people. Therefore, these attitudes and behaviors can show up in any group or organization, whether it is white-led or predominantly white or people of color-led or predominantly people of color.
Social class quiz
Do you have privilege? Several quizzes to help you understand your social class.
www.antiracistparent.com
Raising children to be aware of their white privilege is more than making them aware that there are other races in the world. It requires being a different kind of white person.
Vonnegut in Charge
Discussion Question:
From THE NATION:
If you were president [either of Taiwan or the US], what do you think would be the most important things to take care of, and how would you do it?
Ever concerned with raising the level of political discourse in this country, we asked novelist Kurt Vonnegut to compose an acceptance speech for Michael Dukakis. Of course, writers have contributed to presidential oratory in the past, but their efforts were lost in the revision-by-committee process. Here's the real thing, unfiltered and undiluted.
I am here to serve the people of the United States of America -- all of them, in all ways which are lawful.
I will not now speak of my humbleness. It has been said with some truth, I suppose, that almost anyone can grow up to be President. I have to add, ''But surely not an humble child.'' The Presidency is simultaneously a pinnacle of power and of vanity, and God help us all.
An aspect of my vanity, which seems to have found favor with a majority of those who chose to vote, is my belief that, with the help of the fourth branch of government mentioned in our Constitution, ''We the people,'' I can do a lot to help the United States of America become the United States of America--at last, at last.
The echo of Martin Luther King in my words is intentional when I say ''at last, at last.''
It will do us no harm today, as it has surely done no harm to other nations I need not name, to acknowledge a past soiled with atrocities, including, in our case, slavery and genocide, and the treatment of women of whatever race under law as though they were not citizens but property. Let us celebrate how far we have come from such bad old days in so short a time, and measure how far we have yet to go.
What better measurement might we use for progress made and progress yet to come than the health and happiness and wisdom and safety of all our people? And make no mistake about it: This nation is the most astonishing and admirable experiment in pluralistic democracy in history. Because of our wealth, the fairness of our Bill of Rights and the openness of our long borders, every conceivable sort of human being is now an American.
We are the world.
There is much in the recent past I would undo, if I could, especially our overwhelming national debt, whose undoing will be slow and painful. I will try to find out what good things, if any, we bought with all that money, borrowed mostly from foreigners. I will report back to you, whose children and grandchildren must pay it back with interest. I will be surprised, as I am sure most of you will be, too, if I find many purchases our descendants might thank us for.
With your encouragement, and with the cooperation of your elected representatives, I will attempt, after listening to the best-informed advisers I can find, to give future generations reasons to think well of us after all. There you have it, the principal mission of my administration: to create and bequeath to the future a decent habitat for all, free of poisons, free of hunger, free of ignorance, free of hate.
Too much, too much?
Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?
Those are the words of Robert Browning, of course. I can put it a lot less elegantly, if you like:
Company's coming! Let's clean up this mess.
Many of the poisons in the water and the air and the topsoil are new. One which can sicken our spirit is ancient, and only since World War II has this country begun to fight it with any seriousness: the idea that females and persons of color are second-class citizens. That poison would love to make a great big comeback, to take its lethal place alongside nerve gas and radioactive wastes and PCBs and crack, and DDT and Agent Orange and the AIDS virus, and on and on.
Not while I'm President. In the words of Patrick Henry:
If this be treason, make the most of it.
Am I proposing a redistribution of wealth? You bet, since the wealth is being redistributed in any case, and often most crazily, and against the national interest. Am I proposing that we tax and tax and spend and spend? Yes, I am. Virtually every transaction is being skimmed already, and some private persons have done this at such confiscatory rates as to become as rich as smaller sovereign nations in a few years' time. And they spend and spend. On what? On what?
Ah, me.
Am I proposing an enormous public works program? How else might we describe our military-industrial complex, so mistrusted by that great Republican, General of the Armies Dwight David Eisenhower, when he himself became our President? With your encouragement I want to take much of the money now going into that public works program, and invest it instead in the arts of peace, the noblest of which are public health and education.
Who says otherwise? And why?
Company's coming.
I thank you for your attention.
I am here to serve the people of the United States of America -- all of them, in all ways which are lawful.
I will not now speak of my humbleness. It has been said with some truth, I suppose, that almost anyone can grow up to be President. I have to add, ''But surely not an humble child.'' The Presidency is simultaneously a pinnacle of power and of vanity, and God help us all.
An aspect of my vanity, which seems to have found favor with a majority of those who chose to vote, is my belief that, with the help of the fourth branch of government mentioned in our Constitution, ''We the people,'' I can do a lot to help the United States of America become the United States of America--at last, at last.
The echo of Martin Luther King in my words is intentional when I say ''at last, at last.''
It will do us no harm today, as it has surely done no harm to other nations I need not name, to acknowledge a past soiled with atrocities, including, in our case, slavery and genocide, and the treatment of women of whatever race under law as though they were not citizens but property. Let us celebrate how far we have come from such bad old days in so short a time, and measure how far we have yet to go.
What better measurement might we use for progress made and progress yet to come than the health and happiness and wisdom and safety of all our people? And make no mistake about it: This nation is the most astonishing and admirable experiment in pluralistic democracy in history. Because of our wealth, the fairness of our Bill of Rights and the openness of our long borders, every conceivable sort of human being is now an American.
We are the world.
There is much in the recent past I would undo, if I could, especially our overwhelming national debt, whose undoing will be slow and painful. I will try to find out what good things, if any, we bought with all that money, borrowed mostly from foreigners. I will report back to you, whose children and grandchildren must pay it back with interest. I will be surprised, as I am sure most of you will be, too, if I find many purchases our descendants might thank us for.
With your encouragement, and with the cooperation of your elected representatives, I will attempt, after listening to the best-informed advisers I can find, to give future generations reasons to think well of us after all. There you have it, the principal mission of my administration: to create and bequeath to the future a decent habitat for all, free of poisons, free of hunger, free of ignorance, free of hate.
Too much, too much?
Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?
Those are the words of Robert Browning, of course. I can put it a lot less elegantly, if you like:
Company's coming! Let's clean up this mess.
Many of the poisons in the water and the air and the topsoil are new. One which can sicken our spirit is ancient, and only since World War II has this country begun to fight it with any seriousness: the idea that females and persons of color are second-class citizens. That poison would love to make a great big comeback, to take its lethal place alongside nerve gas and radioactive wastes and PCBs and crack, and DDT and Agent Orange and the AIDS virus, and on and on.
Not while I'm President. In the words of Patrick Henry:
If this be treason, make the most of it.
Am I proposing a redistribution of wealth? You bet, since the wealth is being redistributed in any case, and often most crazily, and against the national interest. Am I proposing that we tax and tax and spend and spend? Yes, I am. Virtually every transaction is being skimmed already, and some private persons have done this at such confiscatory rates as to become as rich as smaller sovereign nations in a few years' time. And they spend and spend. On what? On what?
Ah, me.
Am I proposing an enormous public works program? How else might we describe our military-industrial complex, so mistrusted by that great Republican, General of the Armies Dwight David Eisenhower, when he himself became our President? With your encouragement I want to take much of the money now going into that public works program, and invest it instead in the arts of peace, the noblest of which are public health and education.
Who says otherwise? And why?
Company's coming.
I thank you for your attention.
Taipei Discussion Transcript: Vonnegut
Participants: Maggie, Teresa, Fanny, Mary, Angela
If you were the president or the leader of Taiwan or the world or any territory or the universe or a solar system, or whatever, what do you think would be the most important things to take care of, and how would you do it? So: that’s a broad question, and it should engender some interesting answers, which I think in the form of an outline and some illuminating detail, might be a useful format.
Anyone? Anyone? … Bueller?
If I were a president in Taiwan, there are two things I would like to do first. The first one would be to establish public transport system around the whole Taiwan landscape. Because this policy can cause two helpful effects for Taiwan. The first one is to reduce the oil use, and the second one can develop the rural, the economy and rise the living standard of the small town in rural area. And my second policy is to improve our education. Focusing most on law and money education, among other things, to teach our children respecting themselves and others. I think education is the cornerstone of a country. That’s my policy if I were a president of Taiwan.
So how’s my—
Yeah, if you want , you can critique—
You say, you emphasize on education—
Yeah,
--especially on law?
Yes, in particular and respect children respect themselves a lot. In my opinion, most criminals in our society is because people don’t respect themselves and others. Don’t respect the value of their life.
Myself, I think that school is not going to do this as well as at home, but you have to start somewhere.
Fanny, why do you say law? Why law?
Because I think in Taiwan, Taiwan people seldom obey the law. And that cause a lot of criminals and problems. In addition, most people almost in the bottom of the society, they have no knowledge of law.
Of their rights, maybe?
Yes, and so they don’t know how to protect themselves. For instance when they have no idea in this case, they should or can do something to protect themselves. But rich people have money to hire lawyers, or people with higher levels of education have knowledge of laws, they often know how to protect themselves.
So you mean if you were president, then how would you do of the people, they obey the people—
How you would make people follow the laws?
You say, they don’t follow the law, so if you were president, what would you do to make this kind of people follow the law?
Massive adult education classes? Culture Class for all! About rights and responsibilities? Free? Compulsory? But you’d have to teach the teachers first.
Put heavy punishments.
Don’t we already have that?
No?
The death penalty? That’s not heavy? The problem is, it’s tricky—like you said, people don’t know their rights? Then what do the punishments mean?
Okay, right, so we have to educate people first, the reason why they should obey the rule. Then the third step, if people don’t follow the rules, they will be punished very heavily. Then people will know they should comply.
Okay, so are there any more questions for candidate Fanny?
Just one more question. —
Hee! You sound like a reporter!
—Why do you say ‘law and money’?
Because in recent years, there are so many issues related to complex financial products, and many people, they borrow much more than they have earned, eventually ending up in bankruptcy, and also cause a lot of social problems. They have no choice but ending their lives, their children have no money to finish their education. I think it’s a big problem.
Okay, so are their any more questions for candidate Fanny?
You know I’m very nervous, it’s like I’m a real candidate.
You would be good president!
Does someone else want to be the candidate now? It’s a little bit boring, just one candidate?
We can’t have an election with just one!
Yeah, Taiwan need more candidates.
Okay, if I was the president of Taiwan, I think I have similar. Like economic issues, that people can find a way to earn money for them. Like, or they can find, they can have some organization help them to develop their, like, ability to support themselves, even though they are adult, and that would be a good thing to do.
So job training? Or more than that?
Actually help them to find what they are really good at. Education too. Not just focus on certain areas, but what they are interested in and can make money from. Give them more channel about things they can do, without worrying about ‘now’, not having a financial problem or something
So if you were president you would build a channel for everyone in Taiwan to do whatever they want to do, and without worrying financial problems.
Hopefully!
So, how would you do?
I don’t know.
Well speculate, throw out some ideas, you’re not really a candidate here.
Okay, how about internet. Lots of people don't know how to use the internet. So free lesson, or free education for something, the gvt covers classes they need. But I don’t know where the money comes from!
Well, the Republicans in the US don’t seem to worry much about that either, so I don’t see why that’s a problem.
I just have one suggestion, you can establish a platform, a sharing platform, where people who want to learn certain skills can swap their own skills to others.
That is brilliant!
For instance, I’m good at analysis, you’re good at cooking, we can swap in the platform without paying fees. Because if you provide a totally free channel, that would increase the, that would need more tax, and tax coming from people, and that would be a big burden of the whole country.
But it’s better than paying for weapons?
Okay, are there any other questions for Candidate Mary?
How about a third candidate, Teresa?
I think the most important would be to let my people to have a healthy life, and health and happiness and safety life. Then how do I help them to get to the end? My action, my purpose, the first is, I will invite the other countries, the other foreigner private company to come to Taiwan to invest in Taiwan. The invested item is no, no…
No limit?
No…every industry is okay, if they want to invest in Taiwan. If they want to invest, then they will hire our people. When they hire the Taiwanese, then we can get more salary. If the people get more salary, then they can have a good life than before. Then the gvt has the…can get some tax. So the circle is the …the first things will let our people have a good life.
And the second action is, I will reduce the foreign labor come to Taiwan.
Restrict.
Yes, restrict the foreign laborers, like the southeastern countries, like the Philippine, Myanmar, Vietnam, Indonesia. These kind of countries people, they come to Taiwan to work. I know their salary is cheaper than our people, but they will rob our people ‘s job. I know why the company, they like to hire the foreign laborers. But if we can restrict the foreign laborers, then maybe our peoples can get more job than before. This is if I were a president, these are the first two actions I would take. I wish I were the president right now. But it’s difficult, especially restrict the foreign laborers.
But how about security? You mentioned you want to develop a healthy and happy and …
Safety…yes…security? I’m not sure.
What do you mean by security? You mean int’l security or do you mean reduce the crime rates?
Um, maybe when I invited the private company to invest to Taiwan, maybe there has some security problem. But I think I can control it, because what’s kind of industry come to Taiwan, we can evaluate it before, so if it is a good industry for Taiwan, then I will let them come to here. If it is violate the environment, or pollute our air or water, then I will not let them come to Taiwan to invest, even it can give my people has a good life and get more job. But it will hurt people’s life, so I think the gvt will not let it come. For the security, as you just said, I think after the gvt gets the tax, then we have enough money to hire people to come to be a policeman or they would like to be army, to protect our society. So, and the other action is, security, we need to teach our people, just like you say, give them more education, but I know right now, most Taiwanese people, we have a good level of education. But why some people, they violate the law, because our, we can’t enforce the law. If we can do it like Singapore, I think most of the people, they will follow the law. They will not disobey it. I saw some of Taiwanese people, they go to America. They follow the traffic rule. They know how to drive. Even though no person cross the street, they follow the traffic rule. But in Taiwan they cross the street where they like. But compared to Taiwan and America, they have different rules to follow. Because the American criminal system quickly to punish the people. But in Taiwan, sometimes we didn’t do it.
But America also has more than 1 percent of their population in jail, too, so I’m not certain that’s the best solution.
I think I prefer the Singapore system. Because I think Taiwan’s law is not very strict, so I think maybe we could create more hard and more heavy law to apply.
You know, everyone in Taiwan talks about it, but they don’t really want it. Would you personally want to live in Singapore?
No, it’s too heavy.
See? You don’t want it!
Yeah, but it’s effective!
But it’s important to take the law to important things. Even they see someone violating the law, someone in Taiwan will not say anything about it.
But that’s what’s nice about Taiwan, it’s live and let live, it’s what’s makes here such a nice place to live. Nobody interferes with what you want to do. Let me give you an example. I don’t know if I read this story on the internet, or if someone told me, but this is the story. A guy moved to Singapore, and got an apartment. He put plants on the walkway outside his front door, as you do, and put dishes under each plant to catch the water so that it wouldn’t run all over the place when he watered them, as you do, right? Okay, so a few days later, he gets a knock on the door. It’s a policeman, who told him its illegal in Singapore to put dishes under your plants, or to have any standing water, because it potentially breeds mosquitos. So he got a notice from the police, or maybe even a fine, I don’t remember. The notice or the fine is not really the point. The guy was really pissed off, and why? He was pissed off because he was like, his apartment was on like the 5th or 6th floor. The police wouldn’t have known about his plants without one of the neighbors telling him about it. He was pissed, because he was like, “Why didn’t my neighbors just come to me directly, or put a polite note on my door to let me know the situation? Why did they instead call the police? That’s so unfriendly!” What he felt betrayed about, I think, is that ‘authority’ was brought in to deal with a situation that just needed a little communication. It was like killing a mosquito with a brick, so to speak. It was un-neighborly and unfriendly, and left him angry with all the people who lived near him. That’s not the way to build community, but it is the way you build ruthless dictatorship—break people into vertical relationships with authority, instead of the horizontal relationships of community.
So there’s a lot that’s nice about Taiwan. I’m not saying that it’s always good, but everything good comes with some bad things, and some bad things come with good. But you have to be careful not to lose the important things. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater!
Angela, what would you do?
Well, I totally support the Vonnegut platform, and I would incorporate a lot of the fanny platform and some of the Mary. I really love the idea of educating everybody at once, including all the adults, into understanding, thinking about and applying their rights and responsibilities as citizens. I don’t support the Singapore platform at all, I’m sorry.
If you were the president or the leader of Taiwan or the world or any territory or the universe or a solar system, or whatever, what do you think would be the most important things to take care of, and how would you do it? So: that’s a broad question, and it should engender some interesting answers, which I think in the form of an outline and some illuminating detail, might be a useful format.
Anyone? Anyone? … Bueller?
If I were a president in Taiwan, there are two things I would like to do first. The first one would be to establish public transport system around the whole Taiwan landscape. Because this policy can cause two helpful effects for Taiwan. The first one is to reduce the oil use, and the second one can develop the rural, the economy and rise the living standard of the small town in rural area. And my second policy is to improve our education. Focusing most on law and money education, among other things, to teach our children respecting themselves and others. I think education is the cornerstone of a country. That’s my policy if I were a president of Taiwan.
So how’s my—
Yeah, if you want , you can critique—
You say, you emphasize on education—
Yeah,
--especially on law?
Yes, in particular and respect children respect themselves a lot. In my opinion, most criminals in our society is because people don’t respect themselves and others. Don’t respect the value of their life.
Myself, I think that school is not going to do this as well as at home, but you have to start somewhere.
Fanny, why do you say law? Why law?
Because I think in Taiwan, Taiwan people seldom obey the law. And that cause a lot of criminals and problems. In addition, most people almost in the bottom of the society, they have no knowledge of law.
Of their rights, maybe?
Yes, and so they don’t know how to protect themselves. For instance when they have no idea in this case, they should or can do something to protect themselves. But rich people have money to hire lawyers, or people with higher levels of education have knowledge of laws, they often know how to protect themselves.
So you mean if you were president, then how would you do of the people, they obey the people—
How you would make people follow the laws?
You say, they don’t follow the law, so if you were president, what would you do to make this kind of people follow the law?
Massive adult education classes? Culture Class for all! About rights and responsibilities? Free? Compulsory? But you’d have to teach the teachers first.
Put heavy punishments.
Don’t we already have that?
No?
The death penalty? That’s not heavy? The problem is, it’s tricky—like you said, people don’t know their rights? Then what do the punishments mean?
Okay, right, so we have to educate people first, the reason why they should obey the rule. Then the third step, if people don’t follow the rules, they will be punished very heavily. Then people will know they should comply.
Okay, so are there any more questions for candidate Fanny?
Just one more question. —
Hee! You sound like a reporter!
—Why do you say ‘law and money’?
Because in recent years, there are so many issues related to complex financial products, and many people, they borrow much more than they have earned, eventually ending up in bankruptcy, and also cause a lot of social problems. They have no choice but ending their lives, their children have no money to finish their education. I think it’s a big problem.
Okay, so are their any more questions for candidate Fanny?
You know I’m very nervous, it’s like I’m a real candidate.
You would be good president!
Does someone else want to be the candidate now? It’s a little bit boring, just one candidate?
We can’t have an election with just one!
Yeah, Taiwan need more candidates.
Okay, if I was the president of Taiwan, I think I have similar. Like economic issues, that people can find a way to earn money for them. Like, or they can find, they can have some organization help them to develop their, like, ability to support themselves, even though they are adult, and that would be a good thing to do.
So job training? Or more than that?
Actually help them to find what they are really good at. Education too. Not just focus on certain areas, but what they are interested in and can make money from. Give them more channel about things they can do, without worrying about ‘now’, not having a financial problem or something
So if you were president you would build a channel for everyone in Taiwan to do whatever they want to do, and without worrying financial problems.
Hopefully!
So, how would you do?
I don’t know.
Well speculate, throw out some ideas, you’re not really a candidate here.
Okay, how about internet. Lots of people don't know how to use the internet. So free lesson, or free education for something, the gvt covers classes they need. But I don’t know where the money comes from!
Well, the Republicans in the US don’t seem to worry much about that either, so I don’t see why that’s a problem.
I just have one suggestion, you can establish a platform, a sharing platform, where people who want to learn certain skills can swap their own skills to others.
That is brilliant!
For instance, I’m good at analysis, you’re good at cooking, we can swap in the platform without paying fees. Because if you provide a totally free channel, that would increase the, that would need more tax, and tax coming from people, and that would be a big burden of the whole country.
But it’s better than paying for weapons?
Okay, are there any other questions for Candidate Mary?
How about a third candidate, Teresa?
I think the most important would be to let my people to have a healthy life, and health and happiness and safety life. Then how do I help them to get to the end? My action, my purpose, the first is, I will invite the other countries, the other foreigner private company to come to Taiwan to invest in Taiwan. The invested item is no, no…
No limit?
No…every industry is okay, if they want to invest in Taiwan. If they want to invest, then they will hire our people. When they hire the Taiwanese, then we can get more salary. If the people get more salary, then they can have a good life than before. Then the gvt has the…can get some tax. So the circle is the …the first things will let our people have a good life.
And the second action is, I will reduce the foreign labor come to Taiwan.
Restrict.
Yes, restrict the foreign laborers, like the southeastern countries, like the Philippine, Myanmar, Vietnam, Indonesia. These kind of countries people, they come to Taiwan to work. I know their salary is cheaper than our people, but they will rob our people ‘s job. I know why the company, they like to hire the foreign laborers. But if we can restrict the foreign laborers, then maybe our peoples can get more job than before. This is if I were a president, these are the first two actions I would take. I wish I were the president right now. But it’s difficult, especially restrict the foreign laborers.
But how about security? You mentioned you want to develop a healthy and happy and …
Safety…yes…security? I’m not sure.
What do you mean by security? You mean int’l security or do you mean reduce the crime rates?
Um, maybe when I invited the private company to invest to Taiwan, maybe there has some security problem. But I think I can control it, because what’s kind of industry come to Taiwan, we can evaluate it before, so if it is a good industry for Taiwan, then I will let them come to here. If it is violate the environment, or pollute our air or water, then I will not let them come to Taiwan to invest, even it can give my people has a good life and get more job. But it will hurt people’s life, so I think the gvt will not let it come. For the security, as you just said, I think after the gvt gets the tax, then we have enough money to hire people to come to be a policeman or they would like to be army, to protect our society. So, and the other action is, security, we need to teach our people, just like you say, give them more education, but I know right now, most Taiwanese people, we have a good level of education. But why some people, they violate the law, because our, we can’t enforce the law. If we can do it like Singapore, I think most of the people, they will follow the law. They will not disobey it. I saw some of Taiwanese people, they go to America. They follow the traffic rule. They know how to drive. Even though no person cross the street, they follow the traffic rule. But in Taiwan they cross the street where they like. But compared to Taiwan and America, they have different rules to follow. Because the American criminal system quickly to punish the people. But in Taiwan, sometimes we didn’t do it.
But America also has more than 1 percent of their population in jail, too, so I’m not certain that’s the best solution.
I think I prefer the Singapore system. Because I think Taiwan’s law is not very strict, so I think maybe we could create more hard and more heavy law to apply.
You know, everyone in Taiwan talks about it, but they don’t really want it. Would you personally want to live in Singapore?
No, it’s too heavy.
See? You don’t want it!
Yeah, but it’s effective!
But it’s important to take the law to important things. Even they see someone violating the law, someone in Taiwan will not say anything about it.
But that’s what’s nice about Taiwan, it’s live and let live, it’s what’s makes here such a nice place to live. Nobody interferes with what you want to do. Let me give you an example. I don’t know if I read this story on the internet, or if someone told me, but this is the story. A guy moved to Singapore, and got an apartment. He put plants on the walkway outside his front door, as you do, and put dishes under each plant to catch the water so that it wouldn’t run all over the place when he watered them, as you do, right? Okay, so a few days later, he gets a knock on the door. It’s a policeman, who told him its illegal in Singapore to put dishes under your plants, or to have any standing water, because it potentially breeds mosquitos. So he got a notice from the police, or maybe even a fine, I don’t remember. The notice or the fine is not really the point. The guy was really pissed off, and why? He was pissed off because he was like, his apartment was on like the 5th or 6th floor. The police wouldn’t have known about his plants without one of the neighbors telling him about it. He was pissed, because he was like, “Why didn’t my neighbors just come to me directly, or put a polite note on my door to let me know the situation? Why did they instead call the police? That’s so unfriendly!” What he felt betrayed about, I think, is that ‘authority’ was brought in to deal with a situation that just needed a little communication. It was like killing a mosquito with a brick, so to speak. It was un-neighborly and unfriendly, and left him angry with all the people who lived near him. That’s not the way to build community, but it is the way you build ruthless dictatorship—break people into vertical relationships with authority, instead of the horizontal relationships of community.
So there’s a lot that’s nice about Taiwan. I’m not saying that it’s always good, but everything good comes with some bad things, and some bad things come with good. But you have to be careful not to lose the important things. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater!
Angela, what would you do?
Well, I totally support the Vonnegut platform, and I would incorporate a lot of the fanny platform and some of the Mary. I really love the idea of educating everybody at once, including all the adults, into understanding, thinking about and applying their rights and responsibilities as citizens. I don’t support the Singapore platform at all, I’m sorry.
The Subtle Benefits of Racism
Questions to Ponder:
1. Are Taiwanese people racist?
2. Are Chinese people racist?
3. The cartoon here speaks mostly about American experience of racism. Do you know any stories about a Taiwanese/Chinese experience of racism?
4. Why do Chinese people prefer to invest in China, rather than Indonesia, or the Philippines, or Malaysia?
5. Why are there anti-Chinese sentiments in Malaysia?
6. Why are white foreigners called 'waiguo ren' [=foreign people] in Taiwan, and brown foreigners called 'wailau' [=foreign workers]?
7. Are ‘ethnic differences’ the same as ‘racism’?
8. Are Hakka people systematically discriminated against?
9. Are Min-nan people systematically discriminated against?
10. Are Waisheng people systematically discriminated against?
11. Are Aboriginal people systematically discriminated against?
Discussion Question:
Does racism exist in Taiwan?
Choose a side:Team A) No. Taiwanese people are very tolerant of and friendly to foreigners.
Team B) Yes. Every time we have an election, there’s a race issue in Taiwan.
Team C) Moderator
Team D) No. There may have been problems in the past, but now everyone’s got the same opportunities as everyone else.
Team E) Yes. Chinese people think people lighter than them are superior, and those darker than them are inferior.
Team F) It’s not important. The M-shaped economy is a bigger problem for Taiwanese people, we’re just wasting our time with the ‘ethnic differences’, it’s just a political issue.
Team G) No. ___________________________________________.
Team H) Yes. ___________________________________________.
Article
Amptoons: Denial, It's a White Thing
Taipei Discussion Transcript: Racism
Participants: Amy, Anita, Doris, Ramona, Mary, Clark aka Superman, Maggie, Willie, Fanny, Lynn, Angela
I want team d and team f, just like team d said, there may have been problems in the past, but now everyone has the same opportunities. So I want to combine the two.
I choose team b. In my opinion, it’s not just in Taiwan, it’s around the world. And I think the Taiwanese people they all think racism exist in Taiwan, every time we have an election, politicians use the issue to, like, if we are the same race, we need to get together, we need to fight the other politician, because we are the same race. So it does exist in Taiwan.
I am team h, because racism exists in Taiwan, and also other countries. Sometimes I meet person who discriminate towards others, who discriminate against me.
I choose team h. I think racism exists in Taiwan. It also exists all over the world. Just as Mary says, sometimes discriminate towards others, and others discriminate against us.
Sometimes I think that yeah racism does exist in Taiwan, but here we do have equal chances for jobs. Because racism does exist, because people have racist impressions of other people, but people here are generally kind, we think it, but we don’t necessarily act it.
I do believe it exists in Taiwan, and it’s also a phenomena worldwide, especially in the neighbors with similar culture background, but still have racism, like Taiwan and China, Turkey and Greece, Malaysia etc.
So you’re team H?
Yes, team H.
I’m also in team H, I agree with Mary’s opinion, that racism exists not only in Taiwan, but also in other countries. Actually, people in Taiwan are kind to foreigners and all people like Hakka people or aboriginal people, and all Taiwanese people have the same opportunities for works, for jobs, however, sometimes we have different attitude impression on different races. Even for foreigners, we have different treatment for white people and black people.
I’m in team f. I believe that it exists in Taiwan, but I don’t think it’s important anymore. I think that the bigger problem is that people will discriminate by people’s economic difference, instead of their ethnic difference. So that’s my point. I really that racism is a political issue, it will be picked up jut for political purposes.
I like a, b, d, e and f.
So you think all the positions are true.
Yes. I think for my opinion, the racism not exist in Taiwan, compared with south Africa, we are much more better. We don’t have, we don’t have white people against black people, we don’t have much fighting, only for political reasons. But I also agree that the m shaped economy is gradually changing our thought level. You would think people are rich they have higher standards compared with other people, so it’s hard for me to choose one side to stand for that.
I choose team d. I think everyone got a standard chance. So I don’t think racism exists in Taiwan right now.
Can I just mention? I think one reason it seems that everyone has a standard chance in Taiwan is that most people look very similar, it's hard to tell if you're Minnan or Hakka by looking at anyone. So, unless anyone here identifies as Hakka, for example,
I'm Hakka.
Okay, thanks for saying so. My point was that, if most people here are Minnan, and I'm white, well, most of us have the privilege of being the dominant race, and so from this perspective, it's really easy to think that we all have the same opportunities. But I think if you were to ask an Aboriginal person from Pingdong, you would have maybe a different answer to that question. For example, a friend of mine was born in Pingdong, but when she was very young she was adopted out to a British couple because her family had 10 children and couldn't raise them, so she was raised totally British, she can't speak Mandarin or Taiwanese or anything, and she came back here to meet her birth family. When she was there, she asked them which Aboriginal tribe they belonged to, because she had done research, and found pictures of I think the Amis tribe, and found that her own face, especially her nose, looked just like them. Like a really uncanny resemblance. And her family were like, "No, no way, we're Minnan, we're not Aboriginals!!" But everyone knows that there was intermarriage and other things, so the chances are actually really good that they were partly Aboriginal, but they didn't want to think that at all. It affects their social standing too much.
I want to ask a question, for those who think racism really important in Taiwan, I want to ask, who ever had an experience to be treat by racism. Do you have any experience in Taiwan, because you are Hakka, you are Minnan, or you are Waisheng, do you have different treatment?
I have no experience to be discriminated against. However I once discriminated towards others. Once I met a black person on the subway. They talked to me, and then I left my ms address to him, and we talked a lot on line. One day he invited me to have a coffee with me, but I just think why was he not a white guy, and so I think for some people like me, racism exists.
If he is Obama or Tiger Woods? Or handsome?
But if Obama and another black person I would choose Obama, but if Obama and a white person, I would choose the white person.
Okay, let me choose the handsome guy to compare…
I think people Taiwan look down on people come from India or Indonesia. So we call them Thailau [=Thai laborer]. Why don’t we call white people Bailau [=White laborer]? And I think the white people aren’t that useful! But Chinese people think white people are better.
But they’re laborers, so we’re just calling them what they are.
But the white guys, what they do is like labor work [=teaching kindergarten, it's basically child care], but we don’t call them that.
The point is, if you saw someone who is darker, from south Asia, you’ll call them a Wailau [=outside/foreign laborer], but maybe they’re not doing that work. Some Indians come to Taiwan, they’re managers of IT company, but we don’t treat them well, because they’re darker than us.
So we treat them different because of the color of their skin?
Yes, we are racist.
Yes, but in Taiwan, it’s just that we call the dark people whatever-lau, if it is a racism, it’s just a small one, we didn’t treat them very bad.
No, we treat them very bad! For example my brother’s daughter has a Filipina maid, but she treats her like animal, she says, "Come, come!"
It’s an education problem. [=they’re ignorant/poor/unsophisticated people]
No! They’re not!
That’s an isolated case.
But I have a lot of anecdotal evidence to the contrary. It’s not isolated. I’ve personally known four people with maids, all of them treat them with serious disrespect. Also, my god, all you have to do is read the Sunday section of the English newspaper Taiwan News, on the page for the Filipinas, and you’ll hear stories that’ll make your hair stand on end. Even the less shocking stories, they’re just so common! Especially the CLA [=Council of Labor Affairs], they way they treat Filipinas is a national disgrace. In the 11 years I’ve lived in Taiwan, I would say I only know of one case where they treated the maid who worked for them with the dignity one accords to an equal.
I’m going to move to Team H!
But it’s a hierarchy problem. It doesn’t matter what the color of your skin is. It’s a question, that people think, we are the employer, we are the employee, so this kind of abuse happens frequently. It doesn’t matter the color of the skin.
But how about the foreign wives? Some type of people, they buy a wife from the Philippines or Vietnam, and their family treat them badly.
Well, that’s not a marriage, it’s more like a contract.
Yeah, you get a maid and you can have sex with them and legally it's not rape. Ugh.
Well…
So it’s more an economic difference than a racial difference. You know, lots of people from India, they are getting richer and richer. So they can buy Land Rover, the British company. Once they are the boss, we are not say they are ugly or they are whatever.
I think we won’t say they are ugly in front of them.
But we will say they don’t smell good when they can’t hear.
This is still kind of discrimination. So it’s not just only economic situation.
Well, my ex-boss is Indian, he doesn’t smell, and he’s handsome, so I don’t think I would say that we discriminated. Also I worked for a French person, he said he was discriminated against by British, so it’s not just race.
And race is not the only factor. If I richer than you I can make a lot of money, but you have to use your body to make money, so I can say my level is higher than you.
So Angela, the news you saw in the newspaper, the husband they say they have the money, then they can abuse them. But if they met each other and fell in love, then it’s fine.
Sure, but if you pick up someone from a lineup in a dirty bar in Vietnam, that’s hardly meeting and falling in love, is it?
No, I’m talking about two people from different cultures who met and fell in love.
Then you’re not talking about buying a wife, are you?
What I’m saying is, it’s an economic issue.
But will people who come from Iraq or Iran have higher status than US people? Not really. So that’s still a racial issue, I think.
Middle east people…
But how much do you know them, are there middle east people in Taiwan? And we only know they are rich because we read in an article or whatever, hey go invest there, so we don’t know that much about them. And India, too. But they have a huge racism problem. If you are a laborer, after 12, you can’t get much of an education. But here in Taiwan… if I was educated in US, probably I want to choose someone white from America to teach my kids, not a black person. So you don’t see a lot of black people, it’s hard for them to get a job. So I’m saying that there’s a lot of racism here.
So I’m arguing against that--it’s not just an economic issue.
But I think that the different part is that the maids are discriminated because of the economic issues, but lots of Taiwanese have an impression like people with black skins are dirty or dumb. Or those who are south Asian look dirty or dumb, or they have tendency to sexual harass other people. But it’s just kind of impression, because it really didn’t prevent them from treating us equally. We treat them like that, because we don’t want to get close to them. So we don’t treat them that badly in public. But in private, it’s hard to say, especially that a lot of maids or foreign wives are not treated well. So it’s our impression of them that matters. So it’s racism plus economic issues. For maids, maybe economic issues become more important a factor.
Do you think that mainland Chinese wives are treated better than Vietnamese wives?
Are you asking us to make a scale of racism?
I don’t think a scale is a good idea…
Yes, but I want to ask this.
I think so, because wives from china cost more than Vietnamese wives. I think there really is a scale.
So you pay more to get the same language.
It’s like a kind of merchandising. Cut rate wife.
Still produces babies but doesn’t speak the language so well.
Because I think wives from china get better treatment than Taiwanese wives.
Why do you say so?
Because I hear them talking at California Fitness.
But if they’re there, then they’re definitely on the higher end of the economic scale. So they could be treated better because they’re upper class.
I just think of a situation.
In the city, we can meet a lot of foreigner, they come from other country. And maybe we can change the situation of race discrimination. Like in HK, you can meet a lot of people, and so maybe they are less discriminatory because they meet people. Then you won’t think people smell different.
Actually we smell different because we eat different things. It affects our body odor. When I first got to Taiwan I realized this, because I started to smell different, eating the food here.
Yes, like a friend of mine, she won’t rent her house to Koreans, because they have kimchi, and she doesn’t like this smell.
So if Taiwan becomes an international city, then this will help the problem.
But HK has Filipina maids, and they still treat them like shit.
But when I travel in Philippines, they think I’m Filipina, and in Thailand they think I’m Thai, and at first this was a problem, but now I accept that. And now I have a Filipina friend, I think he’s so nice, he’s so smart, it really changed my mind. I think the more you travel, you get less and less racist.
So if we accept Clark’s suggestion to have the gvt make the city more international, it’ll help racism?
I think maybe, but I think we have to do it from our education, since the kids. We have to tell them that everyone is equal.
When I was a child, my parents always scare me, they say, if you don’t study hard, maybe you will have to go to the Philippines and clean houses, and become Taiwanese-lau.
Fanny just raise a—you mention about middle east people. I just think about another issue, maybe not the racism, I think it’s interesting, I want to share, I think that most people think that middle easterners are terrorists. We were affected by American movies, or American culture a lot, so we will be biased.
We have to blame our own news reporters, too.
In movies, the Russian men, or the middle easterner are always the bad guys, so they are the terrorists. You are right, we should be educated better, and more global-minded, instead of just taking images from the media. Because the media is from America, from CNN, whatever. We should think more about what is shown to us.
I agree with you, I think because our media is, it influence a lot of our thought, especially for kids, and our medias only translate news from CNN most of the time. We don’t have much news from France, not much from middle east, probably because we cannot translate.
Because we are America’s friend.
Are we?
Well our government wants to be. And the middle east is the enemies of the US, so it’s impossible to hear news from middle east in Taiwan, except for economy issues.
There’s one thing I want to share. A friend of mine from the US, he said Americans hate so-called terrorists, but he said that Bush has a strong relationship with the Saudis, in the middle east.
I have a question: I’ll go to Paris in December. Does France discriminate against Asian people? Because I’m going to travel alone. Does anyone have any experience?
How long are you going for?
Two weeks.
If you are in a big city, its probably fine, but if you are going to the country side, be patient, and be careful.
Be careful?
You know as a woman traveling alone, you have to be careful?
I have a personal question, you mentioned south Africa, are you from there?
No, I have friends from there, and they’re white, and they really hate black people. They say that the problems in the city are caused by black people. They have five layers of doors.
Well, women have trouble there, rape in your own bed is very common there, it’s why I’m never going.
Also men have problems.
So when I’m in Taiwan, and we’re out dancing, if a black guy wants to hang out with me, they’ll line up and force them to back off.
So these friends of yours are men?
Why do you ask?
Because that seems a very male thing to do, you know, males are trained to power, that was a power-assuming kind of move.
I want team d and team f, just like team d said, there may have been problems in the past, but now everyone has the same opportunities. So I want to combine the two.
I choose team b. In my opinion, it’s not just in Taiwan, it’s around the world. And I think the Taiwanese people they all think racism exist in Taiwan, every time we have an election, politicians use the issue to, like, if we are the same race, we need to get together, we need to fight the other politician, because we are the same race. So it does exist in Taiwan.
I am team h, because racism exists in Taiwan, and also other countries. Sometimes I meet person who discriminate towards others, who discriminate against me.
I choose team h. I think racism exists in Taiwan. It also exists all over the world. Just as Mary says, sometimes discriminate towards others, and others discriminate against us.
Sometimes I think that yeah racism does exist in Taiwan, but here we do have equal chances for jobs. Because racism does exist, because people have racist impressions of other people, but people here are generally kind, we think it, but we don’t necessarily act it.
I do believe it exists in Taiwan, and it’s also a phenomena worldwide, especially in the neighbors with similar culture background, but still have racism, like Taiwan and China, Turkey and Greece, Malaysia etc.
So you’re team H?
Yes, team H.
I’m also in team H, I agree with Mary’s opinion, that racism exists not only in Taiwan, but also in other countries. Actually, people in Taiwan are kind to foreigners and all people like Hakka people or aboriginal people, and all Taiwanese people have the same opportunities for works, for jobs, however, sometimes we have different attitude impression on different races. Even for foreigners, we have different treatment for white people and black people.
I’m in team f. I believe that it exists in Taiwan, but I don’t think it’s important anymore. I think that the bigger problem is that people will discriminate by people’s economic difference, instead of their ethnic difference. So that’s my point. I really that racism is a political issue, it will be picked up jut for political purposes.
I like a, b, d, e and f.
So you think all the positions are true.
Yes. I think for my opinion, the racism not exist in Taiwan, compared with south Africa, we are much more better. We don’t have, we don’t have white people against black people, we don’t have much fighting, only for political reasons. But I also agree that the m shaped economy is gradually changing our thought level. You would think people are rich they have higher standards compared with other people, so it’s hard for me to choose one side to stand for that.
I choose team d. I think everyone got a standard chance. So I don’t think racism exists in Taiwan right now.
Can I just mention? I think one reason it seems that everyone has a standard chance in Taiwan is that most people look very similar, it's hard to tell if you're Minnan or Hakka by looking at anyone. So, unless anyone here identifies as Hakka, for example,
I'm Hakka.
Okay, thanks for saying so. My point was that, if most people here are Minnan, and I'm white, well, most of us have the privilege of being the dominant race, and so from this perspective, it's really easy to think that we all have the same opportunities. But I think if you were to ask an Aboriginal person from Pingdong, you would have maybe a different answer to that question. For example, a friend of mine was born in Pingdong, but when she was very young she was adopted out to a British couple because her family had 10 children and couldn't raise them, so she was raised totally British, she can't speak Mandarin or Taiwanese or anything, and she came back here to meet her birth family. When she was there, she asked them which Aboriginal tribe they belonged to, because she had done research, and found pictures of I think the Amis tribe, and found that her own face, especially her nose, looked just like them. Like a really uncanny resemblance. And her family were like, "No, no way, we're Minnan, we're not Aboriginals!!" But everyone knows that there was intermarriage and other things, so the chances are actually really good that they were partly Aboriginal, but they didn't want to think that at all. It affects their social standing too much.
I want to ask a question, for those who think racism really important in Taiwan, I want to ask, who ever had an experience to be treat by racism. Do you have any experience in Taiwan, because you are Hakka, you are Minnan, or you are Waisheng, do you have different treatment?
I have no experience to be discriminated against. However I once discriminated towards others. Once I met a black person on the subway. They talked to me, and then I left my ms address to him, and we talked a lot on line. One day he invited me to have a coffee with me, but I just think why was he not a white guy, and so I think for some people like me, racism exists.
If he is Obama or Tiger Woods? Or handsome?
But if Obama and another black person I would choose Obama, but if Obama and a white person, I would choose the white person.
Okay, let me choose the handsome guy to compare…
I think people Taiwan look down on people come from India or Indonesia. So we call them Thailau [=Thai laborer]. Why don’t we call white people Bailau [=White laborer]? And I think the white people aren’t that useful! But Chinese people think white people are better.
But they’re laborers, so we’re just calling them what they are.
But the white guys, what they do is like labor work [=teaching kindergarten, it's basically child care], but we don’t call them that.
The point is, if you saw someone who is darker, from south Asia, you’ll call them a Wailau [=outside/foreign laborer], but maybe they’re not doing that work. Some Indians come to Taiwan, they’re managers of IT company, but we don’t treat them well, because they’re darker than us.
So we treat them different because of the color of their skin?
Yes, we are racist.
Yes, but in Taiwan, it’s just that we call the dark people whatever-lau, if it is a racism, it’s just a small one, we didn’t treat them very bad.
No, we treat them very bad! For example my brother’s daughter has a Filipina maid, but she treats her like animal, she says, "Come, come!"
It’s an education problem. [=they’re ignorant/poor/unsophisticated people]
No! They’re not!
That’s an isolated case.
But I have a lot of anecdotal evidence to the contrary. It’s not isolated. I’ve personally known four people with maids, all of them treat them with serious disrespect. Also, my god, all you have to do is read the Sunday section of the English newspaper Taiwan News, on the page for the Filipinas, and you’ll hear stories that’ll make your hair stand on end. Even the less shocking stories, they’re just so common! Especially the CLA [=Council of Labor Affairs], they way they treat Filipinas is a national disgrace. In the 11 years I’ve lived in Taiwan, I would say I only know of one case where they treated the maid who worked for them with the dignity one accords to an equal.
I’m going to move to Team H!
But it’s a hierarchy problem. It doesn’t matter what the color of your skin is. It’s a question, that people think, we are the employer, we are the employee, so this kind of abuse happens frequently. It doesn’t matter the color of the skin.
But how about the foreign wives? Some type of people, they buy a wife from the Philippines or Vietnam, and their family treat them badly.
Well, that’s not a marriage, it’s more like a contract.
Yeah, you get a maid and you can have sex with them and legally it's not rape. Ugh.
Well…
So it’s more an economic difference than a racial difference. You know, lots of people from India, they are getting richer and richer. So they can buy Land Rover, the British company. Once they are the boss, we are not say they are ugly or they are whatever.
I think we won’t say they are ugly in front of them.
But we will say they don’t smell good when they can’t hear.
This is still kind of discrimination. So it’s not just only economic situation.
Well, my ex-boss is Indian, he doesn’t smell, and he’s handsome, so I don’t think I would say that we discriminated. Also I worked for a French person, he said he was discriminated against by British, so it’s not just race.
And race is not the only factor. If I richer than you I can make a lot of money, but you have to use your body to make money, so I can say my level is higher than you.
So Angela, the news you saw in the newspaper, the husband they say they have the money, then they can abuse them. But if they met each other and fell in love, then it’s fine.
Sure, but if you pick up someone from a lineup in a dirty bar in Vietnam, that’s hardly meeting and falling in love, is it?
No, I’m talking about two people from different cultures who met and fell in love.
Then you’re not talking about buying a wife, are you?
What I’m saying is, it’s an economic issue.
But will people who come from Iraq or Iran have higher status than US people? Not really. So that’s still a racial issue, I think.
Middle east people…
But how much do you know them, are there middle east people in Taiwan? And we only know they are rich because we read in an article or whatever, hey go invest there, so we don’t know that much about them. And India, too. But they have a huge racism problem. If you are a laborer, after 12, you can’t get much of an education. But here in Taiwan… if I was educated in US, probably I want to choose someone white from America to teach my kids, not a black person. So you don’t see a lot of black people, it’s hard for them to get a job. So I’m saying that there’s a lot of racism here.
So I’m arguing against that--it’s not just an economic issue.
But I think that the different part is that the maids are discriminated because of the economic issues, but lots of Taiwanese have an impression like people with black skins are dirty or dumb. Or those who are south Asian look dirty or dumb, or they have tendency to sexual harass other people. But it’s just kind of impression, because it really didn’t prevent them from treating us equally. We treat them like that, because we don’t want to get close to them. So we don’t treat them that badly in public. But in private, it’s hard to say, especially that a lot of maids or foreign wives are not treated well. So it’s our impression of them that matters. So it’s racism plus economic issues. For maids, maybe economic issues become more important a factor.
Do you think that mainland Chinese wives are treated better than Vietnamese wives?
Are you asking us to make a scale of racism?
I don’t think a scale is a good idea…
Yes, but I want to ask this.
I think so, because wives from china cost more than Vietnamese wives. I think there really is a scale.
So you pay more to get the same language.
It’s like a kind of merchandising. Cut rate wife.
Still produces babies but doesn’t speak the language so well.
Because I think wives from china get better treatment than Taiwanese wives.
Why do you say so?
Because I hear them talking at California Fitness.
But if they’re there, then they’re definitely on the higher end of the economic scale. So they could be treated better because they’re upper class.
I just think of a situation.
In the city, we can meet a lot of foreigner, they come from other country. And maybe we can change the situation of race discrimination. Like in HK, you can meet a lot of people, and so maybe they are less discriminatory because they meet people. Then you won’t think people smell different.
Actually we smell different because we eat different things. It affects our body odor. When I first got to Taiwan I realized this, because I started to smell different, eating the food here.
Yes, like a friend of mine, she won’t rent her house to Koreans, because they have kimchi, and she doesn’t like this smell.
So if Taiwan becomes an international city, then this will help the problem.
But HK has Filipina maids, and they still treat them like shit.
But when I travel in Philippines, they think I’m Filipina, and in Thailand they think I’m Thai, and at first this was a problem, but now I accept that. And now I have a Filipina friend, I think he’s so nice, he’s so smart, it really changed my mind. I think the more you travel, you get less and less racist.
So if we accept Clark’s suggestion to have the gvt make the city more international, it’ll help racism?
I think maybe, but I think we have to do it from our education, since the kids. We have to tell them that everyone is equal.
When I was a child, my parents always scare me, they say, if you don’t study hard, maybe you will have to go to the Philippines and clean houses, and become Taiwanese-lau.
Fanny just raise a—you mention about middle east people. I just think about another issue, maybe not the racism, I think it’s interesting, I want to share, I think that most people think that middle easterners are terrorists. We were affected by American movies, or American culture a lot, so we will be biased.
We have to blame our own news reporters, too.
In movies, the Russian men, or the middle easterner are always the bad guys, so they are the terrorists. You are right, we should be educated better, and more global-minded, instead of just taking images from the media. Because the media is from America, from CNN, whatever. We should think more about what is shown to us.
I agree with you, I think because our media is, it influence a lot of our thought, especially for kids, and our medias only translate news from CNN most of the time. We don’t have much news from France, not much from middle east, probably because we cannot translate.
Because we are America’s friend.
Are we?
Well our government wants to be. And the middle east is the enemies of the US, so it’s impossible to hear news from middle east in Taiwan, except for economy issues.
There’s one thing I want to share. A friend of mine from the US, he said Americans hate so-called terrorists, but he said that Bush has a strong relationship with the Saudis, in the middle east.
I have a question: I’ll go to Paris in December. Does France discriminate against Asian people? Because I’m going to travel alone. Does anyone have any experience?
How long are you going for?
Two weeks.
If you are in a big city, its probably fine, but if you are going to the country side, be patient, and be careful.
Be careful?
You know as a woman traveling alone, you have to be careful?
I have a personal question, you mentioned south Africa, are you from there?
No, I have friends from there, and they’re white, and they really hate black people. They say that the problems in the city are caused by black people. They have five layers of doors.
Well, women have trouble there, rape in your own bed is very common there, it’s why I’m never going.
Also men have problems.
So when I’m in Taiwan, and we’re out dancing, if a black guy wants to hang out with me, they’ll line up and force them to back off.
So these friends of yours are men?
Why do you ask?
Because that seems a very male thing to do, you know, males are trained to power, that was a power-assuming kind of move.
Hsinchu Discussion Transcript: Racism
Participants: Peter, Kevin, Angela
Wait, before we start this discussion, are you waisheng ren? [=Chinese who emigrated to Taiwan in 1940s when the KMT lost the civil war in China] I just wanna make sure we’re all, y’know, the same…
Well, actually, yes, my father escaped from mainland china after the war.
Oh!
Don’t you mean ‘retreat’? Escape sounds a little…, don’t you think?
Well, escape, retreat, these are different things, maybe he meant escape!
But retreat means you will go back, escape means you don’t want to, right?
Well...
Well, I’m the 9th generation in Taiwan, my family came 300 years ago.
But from where?
Hokkien province.
Well, Angela, what do you think is the difference, in your definition, between Taiwanese, and Chinese, because your question one is Taiwanese people, and question two is Chinese people.
So, she’s saying the people who live here and the people live in china.
So what is the difference, is it just geological, in your opinion?
Well, I think that culture is based on history, and Taiwan has had a very different history from China, you know, it was only populated by Aborigines till about 300 years ago, when people started coming over from China, fleeing the end of the Ming Dynasty and all the upset there, and then it was basically self governing, till the Ching took it over for about 50 years, and then they handed it to the Japanese somewhere in the 1800s, and it became a Japanese colony, and then during the Chinese civil war and the Japanese invasion of china, Taiwanese soldiers were made to fight and help the Japanese side. There was no strong communist party here, the communist party was never in power here, and you never had the Cultural Revolution here. So historically, it’s very different than China. But also, Chinese people have a different idea of race than, say, white people. White people think more along national lines, like you’re German, or you’re French, we don’t think of the white race as a cohesive whole, whereas I think Chinese think of everybody as one group, don’t you say ‘hua ren’? So what I wonder, when you say Chinese, are you saying, culturally? Or nationally?
In my opinion, Chinese are educated to say that all Chinese are one nation, we don’t make exception for cultural or racial. You’re Chinese. Period. Even the Singapore people, they’re Chinese, no exception. So that’s why we’re always arguing about it. They accept this way, you’re original from china, so you’re Chinese. So last time I told the funny story, that actually, china is a part of Mongolia, because the Ching dynasty came from Mongolia. So china is really a part of Mongolia, if you think about it. As history goes by so everything will change. And people can choose what they want, but this is difficult to accept for Chinese, even highly educated people, to ask them to accept this idea. Maybe as child they’re taught this way, so they cannot change.
For the Chinese people in Indonesia, it’s not really about skin color is it? Even if your family has lived in Indonesia for 100 years, they still think you are Chinese.
Another funny story, in Indonesia, you cannot keep your Chinese surname. You must change the surname.
Yeah, but even you, okay, even you remove your last name, but you cannot change the truth that your ancestor is coming from mainland china?
But the people in Indonesia, there’s a kind of racism, they want to block out anything related to your origin, it’s too much. But it’s maybe because the Chinese people they occupy the economic resource, and maybe they’re afraid they will try to take away political power, so they want to overthrow the Chinese race, that thing comes up.
I think the situation you mention about the Chinese people in Indonesia, I think, I think the major cause think is related to preservation for insure their native people, have to share the economic growth outcome result, and because the Chinese people make too much fortune, and most the property and the resources are controlled by the Chinese people. So I think the, I think it’s not because the racism.
That’s why I call this kind of thing racism. I’ll give another example, Malaysia is getting better, in the past they were really against Chinese race, but now they accept the people have their own Chinese surname, it’s okay, but they say the Malay people want to control their political power, but they say the Chinese can keep their economic power. Its true, you ask the Chinese people the Malay people really enjoy some privilege in education, in civil service, there’s really some quota for Malay people. In Thailand, the tour guide told me, actually, they say the fifth generation of the Thailand king, you know that movie, The Annan King, they say the king is the most famous in Thailand, he modernized the Thai, and he really accept Chinese, he said Chinese could immigrate into Thailand, so I say he really make a change in Thai. So now they are really a lot of Chinese in Thailand, and they are accepted, that’s because of the king. But I say, right now, the past percentage of the Chinese race, and the native, I don’t know, but I think they keep balance, in Thailand, that’s my observation.
If we call somebody you’re racist, it means you, how to define, you are a racist or not?
My issue is different, I say racist could be more, maybe aggressive, or say maybe you don’t really like black guy, but I don’t say that’s really racist, if you say you don’t like the other race, and you try to kill them, then that’s racist. But if you don’t like them and just keep away from them, then that’s not rally racist. It depends how aggressive you are.
But somehow, just like we discussed earlier, about the beauty definition, we’re influenced by the media, and the environment, okay. So unconsciously, our concept, or our attitude, okay, be distorted to the so-called racist concept. Just the difference of the degree, or the what action we need to take. Because extreme the racist you just say, you’re not the same, the race, just WWII the Hitler, he want to kill the Jews, because he think the Germany is the okay one, the best in the world. But I think the most people is not the extreme racist. But somehow the racism is very universal, every people in the world somehow has some racist feelings.
Okay, I agree with this thing. I have this kind of ideology, that white people, and Japanese, are the best one, I think most people think this way, or the people from southeast Asia, these ones are lower class, but what we think this way, from influence of media, sometime they present this way, if you want the other people to respect you, you got to respect first. But they show up this way, how can you respect them? You see what I mean? I have a teacher, its hard to translate to English, but he says something like, the poor must have something slimy.
Slimy? Like something wrong with them maybe?
Right, they don’t prepare in advance, they don’t wash themselves. But this don’t apply to the handicapped people, but these poor people, they don’t wash off themselves, so they become that way.
That’s a really strong thing to say…
Just like you talk to aboriginal people, well, t his is difficult to say, but we talk about Hakka and Minnan people, but you know, do you see this kind of thing, Hakka people normally stay in the hilly country area, not the plains or cities, do you know why? And the aboriginal group, they stay in the high mountain area, you know why? Some people say different people immigrate to Taiwan at different times, but most people prefer to stay in plains area. So why do they separate? Because Minnan and Hakka fight, and Hakka lose, so the Hakka moved to the hilly area, and they fought with aboriginal people, and aboriginals lost, so they have to go to mountain area. Now that’s so long ago, no on really care about that, but at that time, if a Hakka came to the city, then they will be killed.
So it was like ‘sundown towns’ for Hakka.
Right, so in the past, the Hakka all stay in Miaoli area, and the city of Hsinchu is Minnan people. But that was a long time ago.
So that’s the same in Taidong. A friend of mine is a haircutter, and she likes to help people, so every once in awhile she goes to Taidong to cut hair for poor kids there, as a way of giving back. Well, she realied, all these kids are poor and negelected, they’re aboriginal kids, mainly. And she found out their parents are fruit farmers. And you’d think, well fruit sells for a lot in Taipei, its expenseive, so fruit farmers should be making some good money, but actually, the mafia who live in Taidong, they only let these farmers sell to them, and they only buy it for 2-3NT a kilo. And you can’t live on that, so they’re depressed and angry and they neglect their kids…there’s just no money. So when you’re buying this fruit in Taipei at 50 or 70 a kilo, it’s all going to the mafia in Taidong, not the Aboriginal fruit farmers. So this stuff isn’t really in the past, it’s alive and well, now.
See, actually, I would say, the gvt really give aboriginal people a lot of chance. They have this kind of thing, they get a salary, and then they spend all their money, and then don’t go back to work
Is this something you’ve observed, or a story you’ve heard.
Well everybody knows this, it’s a general concept. It’s really true.
So, okay, then I really think that story is just straight-up racism. Have you observed that? Do you know a specific instance? Otherwise, I really doubt that.
But Taiwan is so small, it’s easy to move around, so the opportunities are there.
Well, I can’t trust this ‘story’ you’ve just told me, I’m sorry, it sounds like smear tactics. It sounds like something the gangsters in Taidong would say to explain why the Aboriginal fruit farmers are so desperately poor, and to cover up what they’re doing to keep them so poor.
I agree that there’s stories come from news reports or books we read before, but currently, I think in Taiwan, the gvt offer some affirmative actions for like the original people, or some handicap, or even some female, rescue these people, I think the key point is, still they’re, in current Taiwan, the achievement or the contribution you can make for the society is not depends on your original race, okay, I think most of the, I cannot say the current in Taiwan, the gvt provide the fair opportunity for all the races, for example education, but I think it is much better, I think, the society is more open, so if you want to work hard, no matter you are Taiwanese, or Minnan, or Hakka, just like our current president, he says he is Hakka, and also he is waisheng [= Mainland Chinese, not Minnan or Taiwanese], the second generation, so currently he can be elected as Taiwan’s president, so it means racism is not, you know the, concept, generally accepted by most people in Taiwan. I heard that in US, if you are not born in US, you cannot be elected president of the US.
It’s true.
So on this point, Taiwan is more open.
Where was Ma Yingjieu born?
Hong Kong.
So some people in the party once proposed to, like the US, to exclude those people not born in Taiwan, but it was not accepted. So I don’t know, the private business company have many things to provide the opportunity for minority, like handicapped.
Well, Taiwan seems to do a lot for disabled access, I think.
Right, but honestly, when I want to employ a new engineer, honestly, I will choose someone from a background, like if some candidate is handicapped, I would prefer to choose the normal guy become my employee. So I think the racism is for some party or some situation, okay, for example, like the sports game, okay, we all say like Dr. Jones, the basketball game, I don’t know if you remember, we don’t like the Korean judge, because he always misjudged the game, I think most people, most judges in the sports game, somehow will be influenced by his race. So that’s why, in the international baseball game, all the umpires, you need to have a 3rd party. It’s a rule, they cant be one of the two teams, so I think it’s a general principle, so it reflect the truth of that racism exists for all the races, all the people. So what we can do is, um, to find some, to offer some affirmative action, to keep the different minorities can contribute their wisdom.
Wait, before we start this discussion, are you waisheng ren? [=Chinese who emigrated to Taiwan in 1940s when the KMT lost the civil war in China] I just wanna make sure we’re all, y’know, the same…
Well, actually, yes, my father escaped from mainland china after the war.
Oh!
Don’t you mean ‘retreat’? Escape sounds a little…, don’t you think?
Well, escape, retreat, these are different things, maybe he meant escape!
But retreat means you will go back, escape means you don’t want to, right?
Well...
Well, I’m the 9th generation in Taiwan, my family came 300 years ago.
But from where?
Hokkien province.
Well, Angela, what do you think is the difference, in your definition, between Taiwanese, and Chinese, because your question one is Taiwanese people, and question two is Chinese people.
So, she’s saying the people who live here and the people live in china.
So what is the difference, is it just geological, in your opinion?
Well, I think that culture is based on history, and Taiwan has had a very different history from China, you know, it was only populated by Aborigines till about 300 years ago, when people started coming over from China, fleeing the end of the Ming Dynasty and all the upset there, and then it was basically self governing, till the Ching took it over for about 50 years, and then they handed it to the Japanese somewhere in the 1800s, and it became a Japanese colony, and then during the Chinese civil war and the Japanese invasion of china, Taiwanese soldiers were made to fight and help the Japanese side. There was no strong communist party here, the communist party was never in power here, and you never had the Cultural Revolution here. So historically, it’s very different than China. But also, Chinese people have a different idea of race than, say, white people. White people think more along national lines, like you’re German, or you’re French, we don’t think of the white race as a cohesive whole, whereas I think Chinese think of everybody as one group, don’t you say ‘hua ren’? So what I wonder, when you say Chinese, are you saying, culturally? Or nationally?
In my opinion, Chinese are educated to say that all Chinese are one nation, we don’t make exception for cultural or racial. You’re Chinese. Period. Even the Singapore people, they’re Chinese, no exception. So that’s why we’re always arguing about it. They accept this way, you’re original from china, so you’re Chinese. So last time I told the funny story, that actually, china is a part of Mongolia, because the Ching dynasty came from Mongolia. So china is really a part of Mongolia, if you think about it. As history goes by so everything will change. And people can choose what they want, but this is difficult to accept for Chinese, even highly educated people, to ask them to accept this idea. Maybe as child they’re taught this way, so they cannot change.
For the Chinese people in Indonesia, it’s not really about skin color is it? Even if your family has lived in Indonesia for 100 years, they still think you are Chinese.
Another funny story, in Indonesia, you cannot keep your Chinese surname. You must change the surname.
Yeah, but even you, okay, even you remove your last name, but you cannot change the truth that your ancestor is coming from mainland china?
But the people in Indonesia, there’s a kind of racism, they want to block out anything related to your origin, it’s too much. But it’s maybe because the Chinese people they occupy the economic resource, and maybe they’re afraid they will try to take away political power, so they want to overthrow the Chinese race, that thing comes up.
I think the situation you mention about the Chinese people in Indonesia, I think, I think the major cause think is related to preservation for insure their native people, have to share the economic growth outcome result, and because the Chinese people make too much fortune, and most the property and the resources are controlled by the Chinese people. So I think the, I think it’s not because the racism.
That’s why I call this kind of thing racism. I’ll give another example, Malaysia is getting better, in the past they were really against Chinese race, but now they accept the people have their own Chinese surname, it’s okay, but they say the Malay people want to control their political power, but they say the Chinese can keep their economic power. Its true, you ask the Chinese people the Malay people really enjoy some privilege in education, in civil service, there’s really some quota for Malay people. In Thailand, the tour guide told me, actually, they say the fifth generation of the Thailand king, you know that movie, The Annan King, they say the king is the most famous in Thailand, he modernized the Thai, and he really accept Chinese, he said Chinese could immigrate into Thailand, so I say he really make a change in Thai. So now they are really a lot of Chinese in Thailand, and they are accepted, that’s because of the king. But I say, right now, the past percentage of the Chinese race, and the native, I don’t know, but I think they keep balance, in Thailand, that’s my observation.
If we call somebody you’re racist, it means you, how to define, you are a racist or not?
My issue is different, I say racist could be more, maybe aggressive, or say maybe you don’t really like black guy, but I don’t say that’s really racist, if you say you don’t like the other race, and you try to kill them, then that’s racist. But if you don’t like them and just keep away from them, then that’s not rally racist. It depends how aggressive you are.
But somehow, just like we discussed earlier, about the beauty definition, we’re influenced by the media, and the environment, okay. So unconsciously, our concept, or our attitude, okay, be distorted to the so-called racist concept. Just the difference of the degree, or the what action we need to take. Because extreme the racist you just say, you’re not the same, the race, just WWII the Hitler, he want to kill the Jews, because he think the Germany is the okay one, the best in the world. But I think the most people is not the extreme racist. But somehow the racism is very universal, every people in the world somehow has some racist feelings.
Okay, I agree with this thing. I have this kind of ideology, that white people, and Japanese, are the best one, I think most people think this way, or the people from southeast Asia, these ones are lower class, but what we think this way, from influence of media, sometime they present this way, if you want the other people to respect you, you got to respect first. But they show up this way, how can you respect them? You see what I mean? I have a teacher, its hard to translate to English, but he says something like, the poor must have something slimy.
Slimy? Like something wrong with them maybe?
Right, they don’t prepare in advance, they don’t wash themselves. But this don’t apply to the handicapped people, but these poor people, they don’t wash off themselves, so they become that way.
That’s a really strong thing to say…
Just like you talk to aboriginal people, well, t his is difficult to say, but we talk about Hakka and Minnan people, but you know, do you see this kind of thing, Hakka people normally stay in the hilly country area, not the plains or cities, do you know why? And the aboriginal group, they stay in the high mountain area, you know why? Some people say different people immigrate to Taiwan at different times, but most people prefer to stay in plains area. So why do they separate? Because Minnan and Hakka fight, and Hakka lose, so the Hakka moved to the hilly area, and they fought with aboriginal people, and aboriginals lost, so they have to go to mountain area. Now that’s so long ago, no on really care about that, but at that time, if a Hakka came to the city, then they will be killed.
So it was like ‘sundown towns’ for Hakka.
Right, so in the past, the Hakka all stay in Miaoli area, and the city of Hsinchu is Minnan people. But that was a long time ago.
So that’s the same in Taidong. A friend of mine is a haircutter, and she likes to help people, so every once in awhile she goes to Taidong to cut hair for poor kids there, as a way of giving back. Well, she realied, all these kids are poor and negelected, they’re aboriginal kids, mainly. And she found out their parents are fruit farmers. And you’d think, well fruit sells for a lot in Taipei, its expenseive, so fruit farmers should be making some good money, but actually, the mafia who live in Taidong, they only let these farmers sell to them, and they only buy it for 2-3NT a kilo. And you can’t live on that, so they’re depressed and angry and they neglect their kids…there’s just no money. So when you’re buying this fruit in Taipei at 50 or 70 a kilo, it’s all going to the mafia in Taidong, not the Aboriginal fruit farmers. So this stuff isn’t really in the past, it’s alive and well, now.
See, actually, I would say, the gvt really give aboriginal people a lot of chance. They have this kind of thing, they get a salary, and then they spend all their money, and then don’t go back to work
Is this something you’ve observed, or a story you’ve heard.
Well everybody knows this, it’s a general concept. It’s really true.
So, okay, then I really think that story is just straight-up racism. Have you observed that? Do you know a specific instance? Otherwise, I really doubt that.
But Taiwan is so small, it’s easy to move around, so the opportunities are there.
Well, I can’t trust this ‘story’ you’ve just told me, I’m sorry, it sounds like smear tactics. It sounds like something the gangsters in Taidong would say to explain why the Aboriginal fruit farmers are so desperately poor, and to cover up what they’re doing to keep them so poor.
I agree that there’s stories come from news reports or books we read before, but currently, I think in Taiwan, the gvt offer some affirmative actions for like the original people, or some handicap, or even some female, rescue these people, I think the key point is, still they’re, in current Taiwan, the achievement or the contribution you can make for the society is not depends on your original race, okay, I think most of the, I cannot say the current in Taiwan, the gvt provide the fair opportunity for all the races, for example education, but I think it is much better, I think, the society is more open, so if you want to work hard, no matter you are Taiwanese, or Minnan, or Hakka, just like our current president, he says he is Hakka, and also he is waisheng [= Mainland Chinese, not Minnan or Taiwanese], the second generation, so currently he can be elected as Taiwan’s president, so it means racism is not, you know the, concept, generally accepted by most people in Taiwan. I heard that in US, if you are not born in US, you cannot be elected president of the US.
It’s true.
So on this point, Taiwan is more open.
Where was Ma Yingjieu born?
Hong Kong.
So some people in the party once proposed to, like the US, to exclude those people not born in Taiwan, but it was not accepted. So I don’t know, the private business company have many things to provide the opportunity for minority, like handicapped.
Well, Taiwan seems to do a lot for disabled access, I think.
Right, but honestly, when I want to employ a new engineer, honestly, I will choose someone from a background, like if some candidate is handicapped, I would prefer to choose the normal guy become my employee. So I think the racism is for some party or some situation, okay, for example, like the sports game, okay, we all say like Dr. Jones, the basketball game, I don’t know if you remember, we don’t like the Korean judge, because he always misjudged the game, I think most people, most judges in the sports game, somehow will be influenced by his race. So that’s why, in the international baseball game, all the umpires, you need to have a 3rd party. It’s a rule, they cant be one of the two teams, so I think it’s a general principle, so it reflect the truth of that racism exists for all the races, all the people. So what we can do is, um, to find some, to offer some affirmative action, to keep the different minorities can contribute their wisdom.
Privilege: Your Own Silent Super-Hero
Discussion Question:
What is privilege?
Choose a side:
Team A), Team B), Team D), etc: _______________________________ .
Article
Teh Portly Dyke: Privilege--Your Own Silent Super-Hero
Taipei Discussion of Privilege
Privilege. If someone has privilege, it means they have more rights than average people. When I see the word privilege, I think of two kinds of people. Politicians, and the other one businessmen. They are privileged. I also think privilege means maybe they are VIP in the world, they have some license to do what they want.
Privilege is a special entitlement or immunity granted by a gvt or other authority to a restricted group.
So you’re saying privilege is given. Is it given from the top only, or can it be given from the bottom.
I don’t know, but they’re talking about a special advantage. But in many fields, there’s a special advantage. Talk about a man, they have a special privilege or advantage.
I think it’s taking the advantage to let things become smoothly. It’s just like the air, we take it for granted, and we don’t feel of it. Just like people take advantage of water resources every day, more than other animals and plants, but we don’t feel it, we aren’t aware of it.
I think privilege is an advantage and a benefit and a dispensation.
Opening statements
Team A:
Awareness of Privilege is a kind of awareness of other people situations or circumstances. Usually we take most things we can do or we have for granted, and ignore other people’s situations or what they thin. If you have to figure things out for yourself to understand their circumstances, usually people have to lots of works about thinking. You have to think deeply to discover this fact.
Team B:
Privilege if you have define it you have to have comparison first, then you can tell do people have privilege or not. I think somehow Privilege exists because people compare themselves with each other, their status, to define themselves as different. You have to have poor people to know you are a rich person. This a human trait or quality.
I absolutely agree with Mary’s opinion.
Discussion:
Who confers privilege, is a good place to begin.
It’s transmitted by birth. If someone is born in a rich family, they have privilege.
But why is rich privileged?
Because money talks.. because you have to have those skills to keep things going and get what you want. I don’t know how these things begin, but very long ago, people pick out things fro exchange, and money was invented to make exchange simple. if you have more money, you can get more of what you want. And those guys who have more things are more powerful. Because they can also hire people. I think that’s the main problem. Because they can give money to others to ask them to do what they want, kind of hierarchy stuff, that’s where privilege comes from.
Very great point!
Power, people have power if they got money, people become your boss. So sometimes if they ask you to do things, they got the privilege to ask the kinds of things you’re maybe not really interested in doing, so maybe that’s a privilege.
So where does the privilege come from, from the actual pieces of metal.
Privilege is a social construct, right?
So do you mean from consensus? Agreement of …
Who is agreeing that this person is powerful?
Society? Society gives the advantage.
Why do you need their money? What if you could grow your own food?
So it’s kind of an economical problem.
I think that maybe the media deliver the message to all of us, that rich men can own many things and the media emphasize all things belong to the rich man, gives us a good impression. And in our mind we will always think, you can solve any problem if you are rich. So I just think the image usually given by maybe the media or the tv.
But I think it’s true, because you have the money. The rich men they want to do something different, so they will go to the shop during off hours, behind closed doors, because they have more power. And I think it is difficult to avoid the situation. Because in company, in school, in Taipei or Taiwan, it always happen. And I also think if we are poor, that’s okay, we have another way to get privilege, by becoming politicians, we don’t need to follow some rules, maybe we can argue with someone or say some dirty language without fear, because we are a legislator.
The qualities that people has, the personalities, the things that cannot be measured by money.
But can just anyone get rich or be a politician?
Maybe we can sort of give examples of the kinds of privilege of people being privileged and being aware of it or not.
Male privilege, is it true?
Yes, it’s true.
I think it’s been the case since ancient times. Males always have privilege.
Maybe a company, if there are female staff and male staff, and they are all good at their work, but if there’s only one superior position, they always pick the male. They have more opportunity to be the manager.
And many people if their boss is female, they will feel,.,,
Streessfull!
They will think they can’t do it. Just like the example.
I think in this example the major reason is that she’s black, not a man.
Top designers are males.
But they’re mostly gay, because they have sensitive, so they understand men and women.
So why aren’t there a lot more lesbian designers?
Well why do women always sell cosmetics?
But I think white privilege is a very popular topic in America. I found his website with many opinions and discussions to talk about white privilege. I think it’s very serious in America.
For example?
It’s very difficult to find a black president in America. It’s seems so difficult for the people to accept a black president. So I heard about Hillary and Obama, but Obama may be the vice president, just because he is an African America.
I think the main problem of Obama is he’s lacking political experience. Those commentators like to talk about his political experience, because sometimes he’s saying stuff which is politically incorrect.
But they’re being deliberately ignorant of the issue that he’s black.
I read an opinion piece comparing Obama and Hilary, and saying that Hilary was better. I’m not quite sure if it’s the privilege things that’s happening here.
So can the us accept a woman or a black in power.
Recently in Hollywood, it’s all black men in power, so based on that, I think Obama will win.
Lately, I’ve noticed that we call bush and Obama by their last names, and Hilary by her first name.
So will you vote for her?
Well, I’d like to just because she’s a woman, but I’m not sure she’s going to act with women’s interests in mind. Because she is put in power by other people by supporters, who are mostly men. So she has to act with their interests first in mind. which brings us back to the first point, where does power come from, is it given from above, or given by below? We actually give other people power and privilege.
These people have power, have something you don’t have, so they can give you things.
Yes, but my point is why should we support them, instead of envy them?
Because you have people confronting those people, probably there are people who try to confront those people with money and something we don’t have and those people who don’t have things are the losers in the confrontations, so we don’t want to support them.
So you’re saying we don’t want to support the losers?
Yes. Because we are kind of selfish from an economical viewpoint. Because we want to gain our own benefit, after evaluating, if we support people with money, or those white people will be good for us. It’s a benefit exchange. It’s not just giving them power, it’s also gaining something. even if it’s a little, it’s more than you had before. Just like businessmen who donate money to those who have more probability to win the election.
So let’s put it in Taiwan terms. Would you support Annette Lu for president, as a woman?
She doesn’t talk much, so I don’t know what her real opinions are.
Why?
Because as the vice president, President Chen asks her to keep silent. So when Chen Shuibien flies to another country, maybe she hopes that his plane will crash.
I would not vote for her, not because she is a woman, because of her personality. She always like to everyone knows her thinking way is better than the president. I think she is not a team player.
No, I think she is too, I can’t find the word, tough!
But don’t presidents need to be tough?
I think Hilary and Annette Lu are too tough for men.
Wait, are you saying other people wouldn’t vote for her, or you wouldn’t.
She’s not the proper president for Taiwan. Because the political situation is very complicated and her style may increase the tension.
It depends who’s running against her?
Why, who do you like better? Ma Yingjieu?
Because he his handsome, and strong.
Yeah, kind of, because he has a better public image.
But if it were her and him, id vote for her! Because I’d like a real woman!
Oh, you want a real woman, not a man like a woman!
Yes, but also, she has a solid status for her policy. But Ma Yingjieu has a soft
He’s squishy on the issues.
Yes! So I’d rather vote for her.
Are we evaluating them on being men or women, or are we evaluating them on leadership capabilities?
It think it’s 40/60, or more like 20/80, 40 or 20 is sex, and 60 and 80 are individuals.
Closing statements
30 seconds;
I think today’s class is interesting, both the article and the discussion.
30 sec
I think this class we talk about the privilege. Its an advantage, a right, a dispensation, a benefit. It comes from society recognition.
1min.
from this article and the discussion, I think privilege is a kind of circle problem. Some people provide it, some people accept it, and it happen. And there’s the example of some branded bank freely provide their bags to the movie star, and the journalist take the photo and put in the magazine, and all of us buy it, because we want to be the same as the star and purchase the bag. And that branded bag become popular. So branded companies have successful, and continue to provide free bags to movies stars, giving them the privilege. Some people provide it and some people accept.
30 sec
I think privilege is kind of benefit exchanging thing, after this class. Before I thought it was a psychological or social issue. But now I think it’s because of economic issues, and exchange of benefits.
30 seconds.
I think everyone made a good definition of privilege I think it means we can use special way to make things smooth for us. In the past we always needed to just accept it, but today we can use the media to expose or change the situation. And during the class I just think: if you had the chance at privilege, would you take it? The answer is yes.
Privilege is a special entitlement or immunity granted by a gvt or other authority to a restricted group.
So you’re saying privilege is given. Is it given from the top only, or can it be given from the bottom.
I don’t know, but they’re talking about a special advantage. But in many fields, there’s a special advantage. Talk about a man, they have a special privilege or advantage.
I think it’s taking the advantage to let things become smoothly. It’s just like the air, we take it for granted, and we don’t feel of it. Just like people take advantage of water resources every day, more than other animals and plants, but we don’t feel it, we aren’t aware of it.
I think privilege is an advantage and a benefit and a dispensation.
Opening statements
Team A:
Awareness of Privilege is a kind of awareness of other people situations or circumstances. Usually we take most things we can do or we have for granted, and ignore other people’s situations or what they thin. If you have to figure things out for yourself to understand their circumstances, usually people have to lots of works about thinking. You have to think deeply to discover this fact.
Team B:
Privilege if you have define it you have to have comparison first, then you can tell do people have privilege or not. I think somehow Privilege exists because people compare themselves with each other, their status, to define themselves as different. You have to have poor people to know you are a rich person. This a human trait or quality.
I absolutely agree with Mary’s opinion.
Discussion:
Who confers privilege, is a good place to begin.
It’s transmitted by birth. If someone is born in a rich family, they have privilege.
But why is rich privileged?
Because money talks.. because you have to have those skills to keep things going and get what you want. I don’t know how these things begin, but very long ago, people pick out things fro exchange, and money was invented to make exchange simple. if you have more money, you can get more of what you want. And those guys who have more things are more powerful. Because they can also hire people. I think that’s the main problem. Because they can give money to others to ask them to do what they want, kind of hierarchy stuff, that’s where privilege comes from.
Very great point!
Power, people have power if they got money, people become your boss. So sometimes if they ask you to do things, they got the privilege to ask the kinds of things you’re maybe not really interested in doing, so maybe that’s a privilege.
So where does the privilege come from, from the actual pieces of metal.
Privilege is a social construct, right?
So do you mean from consensus? Agreement of …
Who is agreeing that this person is powerful?
Society? Society gives the advantage.
Why do you need their money? What if you could grow your own food?
So it’s kind of an economical problem.
I think that maybe the media deliver the message to all of us, that rich men can own many things and the media emphasize all things belong to the rich man, gives us a good impression. And in our mind we will always think, you can solve any problem if you are rich. So I just think the image usually given by maybe the media or the tv.
But I think it’s true, because you have the money. The rich men they want to do something different, so they will go to the shop during off hours, behind closed doors, because they have more power. And I think it is difficult to avoid the situation. Because in company, in school, in Taipei or Taiwan, it always happen. And I also think if we are poor, that’s okay, we have another way to get privilege, by becoming politicians, we don’t need to follow some rules, maybe we can argue with someone or say some dirty language without fear, because we are a legislator.
The qualities that people has, the personalities, the things that cannot be measured by money.
But can just anyone get rich or be a politician?
Maybe we can sort of give examples of the kinds of privilege of people being privileged and being aware of it or not.
Male privilege, is it true?
Yes, it’s true.
I think it’s been the case since ancient times. Males always have privilege.
Maybe a company, if there are female staff and male staff, and they are all good at their work, but if there’s only one superior position, they always pick the male. They have more opportunity to be the manager.
And many people if their boss is female, they will feel,.,,
Streessfull!
They will think they can’t do it. Just like the example.
I think in this example the major reason is that she’s black, not a man.
Top designers are males.
But they’re mostly gay, because they have sensitive, so they understand men and women.
So why aren’t there a lot more lesbian designers?
Well why do women always sell cosmetics?
But I think white privilege is a very popular topic in America. I found his website with many opinions and discussions to talk about white privilege. I think it’s very serious in America.
For example?
It’s very difficult to find a black president in America. It’s seems so difficult for the people to accept a black president. So I heard about Hillary and Obama, but Obama may be the vice president, just because he is an African America.
I think the main problem of Obama is he’s lacking political experience. Those commentators like to talk about his political experience, because sometimes he’s saying stuff which is politically incorrect.
But they’re being deliberately ignorant of the issue that he’s black.
I read an opinion piece comparing Obama and Hilary, and saying that Hilary was better. I’m not quite sure if it’s the privilege things that’s happening here.
So can the us accept a woman or a black in power.
Recently in Hollywood, it’s all black men in power, so based on that, I think Obama will win.
Lately, I’ve noticed that we call bush and Obama by their last names, and Hilary by her first name.
So will you vote for her?
Well, I’d like to just because she’s a woman, but I’m not sure she’s going to act with women’s interests in mind. Because she is put in power by other people by supporters, who are mostly men. So she has to act with their interests first in mind. which brings us back to the first point, where does power come from, is it given from above, or given by below? We actually give other people power and privilege.
These people have power, have something you don’t have, so they can give you things.
Yes, but my point is why should we support them, instead of envy them?
Because you have people confronting those people, probably there are people who try to confront those people with money and something we don’t have and those people who don’t have things are the losers in the confrontations, so we don’t want to support them.
So you’re saying we don’t want to support the losers?
Yes. Because we are kind of selfish from an economical viewpoint. Because we want to gain our own benefit, after evaluating, if we support people with money, or those white people will be good for us. It’s a benefit exchange. It’s not just giving them power, it’s also gaining something. even if it’s a little, it’s more than you had before. Just like businessmen who donate money to those who have more probability to win the election.
So let’s put it in Taiwan terms. Would you support Annette Lu for president, as a woman?
She doesn’t talk much, so I don’t know what her real opinions are.
Why?
Because as the vice president, President Chen asks her to keep silent. So when Chen Shuibien flies to another country, maybe she hopes that his plane will crash.
I would not vote for her, not because she is a woman, because of her personality. She always like to everyone knows her thinking way is better than the president. I think she is not a team player.
No, I think she is too, I can’t find the word, tough!
But don’t presidents need to be tough?
I think Hilary and Annette Lu are too tough for men.
Wait, are you saying other people wouldn’t vote for her, or you wouldn’t.
She’s not the proper president for Taiwan. Because the political situation is very complicated and her style may increase the tension.
It depends who’s running against her?
Why, who do you like better? Ma Yingjieu?
Because he his handsome, and strong.
Yeah, kind of, because he has a better public image.
But if it were her and him, id vote for her! Because I’d like a real woman!
Oh, you want a real woman, not a man like a woman!
Yes, but also, she has a solid status for her policy. But Ma Yingjieu has a soft
He’s squishy on the issues.
Yes! So I’d rather vote for her.
Are we evaluating them on being men or women, or are we evaluating them on leadership capabilities?
It think it’s 40/60, or more like 20/80, 40 or 20 is sex, and 60 and 80 are individuals.
Closing statements
30 seconds;
I think today’s class is interesting, both the article and the discussion.
30 sec
I think this class we talk about the privilege. Its an advantage, a right, a dispensation, a benefit. It comes from society recognition.
1min.
from this article and the discussion, I think privilege is a kind of circle problem. Some people provide it, some people accept it, and it happen. And there’s the example of some branded bank freely provide their bags to the movie star, and the journalist take the photo and put in the magazine, and all of us buy it, because we want to be the same as the star and purchase the bag. And that branded bag become popular. So branded companies have successful, and continue to provide free bags to movies stars, giving them the privilege. Some people provide it and some people accept.
30 sec
I think privilege is kind of benefit exchanging thing, after this class. Before I thought it was a psychological or social issue. But now I think it’s because of economic issues, and exchange of benefits.
30 seconds.
I think everyone made a good definition of privilege I think it means we can use special way to make things smooth for us. In the past we always needed to just accept it, but today we can use the media to expose or change the situation. And during the class I just think: if you had the chance at privilege, would you take it? The answer is yes.
Hsinchu Discussion of Privelege
Dark skin means you work in the sun, so it means you do physical low-paid labor. If you had white skin it was likely you got to spend all your time indoors, meaning you had money, so white skin historically has meant having ownership.
Why do we like to put people into groups?
Because being an individual is vulnerable. We feel safer in groups.
Because it’s easier to understand people
…to identify who they are where they’re from.
if you can identify them with a group, it’s because you know the group, then you’re not dealing with something unknown.
I agree with Inglen. Maybe we want to know this guy come from or what group he belongs to because we can interact him or her with their social language.
We can predict what they’re going to do or say.
I’m curious, are you an American, have the same idea with us. We think British are more conservative, and German people practical and French are more
Stereotypes have a grain of truth. A group is more easy to follow the stereo type, than an individual.
When you’re in a group, you work to fit into it, so you’re more likely to reflect the values of the group, so you’re more likely to act stereotypically
And individuals, it’s much harder to apply stereotypes to individuals, but its still possible, because we sometimes act in stereotypical ways.
But the problem with stereotypes is…
Why is stereotype a negative word.
It means that you’re all the same, you have no creativity.
If you identify a member of a group with a stereotype, it’s easy to dismiss them as unimportant.
In Chinese culture if you are the first son or grandson in the family, he will get more larger privilege than other levels. Even higher than his aunts.
Closing statements
in this one minute I’m going to talk something about Inglen. It’s amazing, we’ve been here for a couple of time, it’s amazing to see her express herself very time…If I were your age right now, with this attitude of yours, but I still feel so good about her, how she is so bold with her vocabulary and sentence structure. I so want to be able to go back and be like her at that age. To have this kind of courage, from like 10 minutes ago, when you are so brave. I feel happy to see that.
actually I like to have any privilege, and I think we should not proud of privilege if we really have some privilege.
first, thank you sue. I always ask myself to dismiss the first impression of others. I kept the positive opinion to everything. Of course sometimes I will be depressed by things, but I still deal with the situation. Maybe if a take a good look at my situation and my study and my advisor, he thinks I’m great and assigns a lot of work to help her finish her job. My classmates probably wonder about why. I am always the first assigned to do something. I think I work harder than others, and if my advisor assigns the job I won’t sleep till its done, so I can always finish my work. He trusts my ability and he trusts me. I don’t feel it’s a privilege, but I try to do my best for everything. I try to keep focused on the main situation, not on what others thing.
I think as she said, all things have two sides. I think everyone has unique privilege, I don’t think its good or bad. So women might have privilege to be weak, but then they hit the glass ceiling. Males have privilege to have promotion, but then males have pressure to support their family. So we just cherish our privilege and also have to think about the bad side.
Why do we like to put people into groups?
Because being an individual is vulnerable. We feel safer in groups.
Because it’s easier to understand people
…to identify who they are where they’re from.
if you can identify them with a group, it’s because you know the group, then you’re not dealing with something unknown.
I agree with Inglen. Maybe we want to know this guy come from or what group he belongs to because we can interact him or her with their social language.
We can predict what they’re going to do or say.
I’m curious, are you an American, have the same idea with us. We think British are more conservative, and German people practical and French are more
Stereotypes have a grain of truth. A group is more easy to follow the stereo type, than an individual.
When you’re in a group, you work to fit into it, so you’re more likely to reflect the values of the group, so you’re more likely to act stereotypically
And individuals, it’s much harder to apply stereotypes to individuals, but its still possible, because we sometimes act in stereotypical ways.
But the problem with stereotypes is…
Why is stereotype a negative word.
It means that you’re all the same, you have no creativity.
If you identify a member of a group with a stereotype, it’s easy to dismiss them as unimportant.
In Chinese culture if you are the first son or grandson in the family, he will get more larger privilege than other levels. Even higher than his aunts.
Closing statements
in this one minute I’m going to talk something about Inglen. It’s amazing, we’ve been here for a couple of time, it’s amazing to see her express herself very time…If I were your age right now, with this attitude of yours, but I still feel so good about her, how she is so bold with her vocabulary and sentence structure. I so want to be able to go back and be like her at that age. To have this kind of courage, from like 10 minutes ago, when you are so brave. I feel happy to see that.
actually I like to have any privilege, and I think we should not proud of privilege if we really have some privilege.
first, thank you sue. I always ask myself to dismiss the first impression of others. I kept the positive opinion to everything. Of course sometimes I will be depressed by things, but I still deal with the situation. Maybe if a take a good look at my situation and my study and my advisor, he thinks I’m great and assigns a lot of work to help her finish her job. My classmates probably wonder about why. I am always the first assigned to do something. I think I work harder than others, and if my advisor assigns the job I won’t sleep till its done, so I can always finish my work. He trusts my ability and he trusts me. I don’t feel it’s a privilege, but I try to do my best for everything. I try to keep focused on the main situation, not on what others thing.
I think as she said, all things have two sides. I think everyone has unique privilege, I don’t think its good or bad. So women might have privilege to be weak, but then they hit the glass ceiling. Males have privilege to have promotion, but then males have pressure to support their family. So we just cherish our privilege and also have to think about the bad side.
Entitlement
1. Are you entitled?
2. Is entitlement ‘how things are’? Can it be changed?
3. Is racism a form of entitlement?
4. Is sexism?
5. How about consumerism?
6. What does this sentence from the first article mean?
“And what of the people who take advantage of the … oppressed, … who compare their iniquities against … Anderson's and see … a reassuring distance?”
7. Do you agree with the author of the first article, when she says,
“There is only saying no to the indignities one human visits upon another—prejudice, hatred, humiliation and pain—or saying yes.”
8. What does ‘respecting your parents’ mean in Chinese culture?
9. What does ‘respecting others’ mean in Chinese culture?
10. Is ‘respect’ in the Confucian ideal separable from hierarchical social structure?
2. Is entitlement ‘how things are’? Can it be changed?
3. Is racism a form of entitlement?
4. Is sexism?
5. How about consumerism?
6. What does this sentence from the first article mean?
“And what of the people who take advantage of the … oppressed, … who compare their iniquities against … Anderson's and see … a reassuring distance?”
7. Do you agree with the author of the first article, when she says,
“There is only saying no to the indignities one human visits upon another—prejudice, hatred, humiliation and pain—or saying yes.”
8. What does ‘respecting your parents’ mean in Chinese culture?
9. What does ‘respecting others’ mean in Chinese culture?
10. Is ‘respect’ in the Confucian ideal separable from hierarchical social structure?
Discussion Question:
What is respect?
Choose a side:
Team A) Respect is ‘giving face’ and avoiding causing people to ‘lose face’ by observing proper social behavior and conforming with social custom.
Team B) Respect is accepting others’ personality, choices and actions without expecting them to conform to your own personality choices and actions.
Team C) Moderator
Team D) Respect is ___________________.
Team B) Respect is accepting others’ personality, choices and actions without expecting them to conform to your own personality choices and actions.
Team C) Moderator
Team D) Respect is ___________________.
Articles
Shakesville: All-InNo Impact Man: Are We Too Selfish To Change?
Taipei Discussion of Entitlement
Opening statements
Team B
I think respect is a kind of understanding. There are many kinds of people and different character, habit, environments of in their growing process. So the most important part is understanding others. This is the best way to get along with others.
I think everyone has their right to live in the world, and everyone is equal. Even though its hard to accept others without expecting them to conform, we still find the balance of social behavior to us. there is a balance of the evil heart of our thought, ignoring others’ feelings and thinking you are more excellent than others in the world. It’s a balance between loving yourself and loving other people.
Team D:
I think team a and team b combined is my point. Team a is how you get along with others, and team b is, I think they’re both ways of getting along with others.
I think we all agree team a and b are similar, there’s some grey areas. It’s a culture things. When you do business and negotiate with different kinds of people , when with Chinese, you have to use Chinese ways to make things work. But what if you deal with a Jewish person. You probably have to do it a different way. I think that Willie brought up an interesting word, “understanding” because no one would hurt anyone else if they understood them. So how do you understand other people, and how do you understand understanding? Sometimes when we have communicate with people, but understanding is a difficult thing, you thing you’ve communicated, but in fact there’s a misunderstanding.
Moderator.
I think it’s hard to define accept. Is it something you pay to others, or you accept. I read all the way through the article. I looked at this guy Anderson’s behavior, and I wonder, is he worth respect. I can kind of agree that you have to understand others. But you can only understand someone when you stand in his shoes. But if you always use your own way to understand others, are you really understanding them, it’s not really respecting them. I mostly agree team a, team b, but I disagree a little bit at the same time.
Discussion
Were you saying that understanding is not the road to respect.
I think understanding is a very kind behavior, but it is not respect.
I think before we were talking about respect, there’s lots of things we have to learn. You have to know things first, then you have to understand, then you realize, then it comes to respect. So before respect there’s lots of things you have to learn, and embrace.
Is respect an attitude or a concept?
It’s more like an attitude, a surface, and a learning process. Because before respect, we probably make a lot of mistakes of ourselves. But before you have to have a process.
I think giving face is like respect to people who are older than you, like parents or boss.
Do you need understanding to give that kind of respect?
Some you don’t know them, and some you do, but you have to give them respect.
Are Mary and Charlie talking the same word?
So you seem to be talking team a!
Giving face!
But sometimes it’s more than that. Sometimes people do really good things, and you just have to respect them..
So team a is outer behaviour, and team b is inner thinking.
What an insight.
So team b is all about heart.
That’s why we couldn’t take a definite stand on team a or team b.
So team b is saying inner is better than outer, right?
But I think respect is more inner definition, because if you are just like mary said, if the respect is team a, what team a respect is is more polite to other people. And maybe if polite is giving face,
it’s not true respect.
Right! It’s political. So if we talke about respect, I think it’s more inner.
When you say political, what do you mean?
Why I don’t choose team a, it’s just because I don’t think it’s true, it’s not heartfelt, it’s shallow. But I think respect is deeper than that.
I think she’s totally right. The concept of team a is the same as my feleling. I also think there’s different levels of respect. So that’s why I’m team D
So you should join team B!
Wait, did you hear the last thing she said? Tell her again.
So that’s why I’m team D
Huh--?
So you think respect is also a social custom?
If you follow the social custom and make the things work, it’s one kind of respect.
How?
For Chinese, giving face is something you would take for granted when dealing with Chinese. You couldn’t deny it. Why don’t you open up your heart.
Wait, what do you mean?
Admit it, giving face is something you look down on. Take me for an example. When I was younger, I couldn’t realize this idea. But now I realize you have to accept the world as it is to learn. If you deny reality, you make things harder for yourself. For me, now, I’m still learning.
But I have a point that if team a is also correct, why I see many Chinese tv programs series about ancient china. When they are talking about gvt or blah blah blah, they are respect…
Hierarchy is everywhere!
No, I’m not talking about that. If I go to someones house, and they are higher level than me, and I’m very polite, but in my heart, I don’t respect him at all, do you know what I mean?
So then why do you go to his house? Then you don’t have to suffer this self struggle.
But if “Respect is ‘giving face’ and avoiding causing people to ‘lose face’ by observing proper social behavior and conforming with social custom.” Is this real respect.
I’m saying if you follow up social custom, that’s one kind of respect, it’s following social custom. You’re not pretending to do something you don’t like.
So isn’t team a pretending?
I think being polite is one level of respect.
I agree, it’s a social custome, right, I obey the social custome. But does respect come from your heart, or is it just from behavior.
Can’t it be a balanced way?
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying
No, but what I’m saying is, you can’t have black or white, there’s lots of grey. A balanced way is what makes you comfortable.
Many times I will come to this class I will mix my position of team a and b. but this time, I still think respect is an inner condition.
Yes, of course!
I don’t want to deny team a’s position, but it hink the definition of team a is more about polite, not respect. I’m not denying your position, I totally agree, but I think
I think you’re just stuck by something spontantious, or you do it on the surface. But it’s not a contrast thing, it’s not black kor white.
I don’t think they are contrasted.
Actually, you kind of are.
I kind of have a mixed opiionn. Because I think somehow polite is a kind of respect. It’s one of the social skills. Lyou need to live with others, so respect also means how much you can tolerate others, how much you can sacrifice your own dignity to accept others’ odd behaviour. So I think the concept of team a is a kind of respect, but it’s kind of fake.
See!!!!!
Hey, I know what you mean, it’s not that I don’t.
Because we have to struggle to get along in this world, so fake respect is necessary somehow. And at first I thought team b was truly respect others, but now I think its about tolerating people, sacrificing your dignity for the sake of others.
So daughter/mother. Daughter is not giving mother face, mother is not sacrificing dignity for sake of daughter.
See, this is where understanding comes in. if each can understand the other then they can respect the other.
I think the mother expect her daughter to conform to her own moral system. So she want to press her daughter to do what she want her to do.
I think it’s what, that’s what understanding is about. In my opinion, understanding is the thing that you can understand the reason others do it. From others point of view you can know that what he or she is doing is understandable, because they have their own considerations. I think the reason why is that when we see others have different actions or opinions from our expectation, we have a tendency to adjust them to our own side. But in fact if you can try to understand others, two or three or more people might have a chance to converse, and make better decision about the situation.
So exactly how is the mother supposted to understand the daughter, and vice versa.
I just found the definitionof team d on my own. Understanding when someone needs to be given face, understanding when things need to be more smooth, understanding that the daughter needs to be given more space, understanding that the mother needs
But don’t you think that what they each have mutually exclusive needs? I put lots of emphasis on understanding, but I think it’s just the first step. Then there has to be an attempt to communicate. It depends on the circumstances. Basically they have to talk to each other more about it. Like how my parents and I negotiate. First we have to state our needs, then we come up with a solution later. Just like what angela said, just like a political propaganda thing. Your decision has lots of things in the background. If htye just know your solution, the first reaction is to reject, because they don’t know why you think so, or why you decide to do so.
So understanding is the first step toward respect.
I think respect is an attitutde. You have to be willing to talk to each other, and then all things followj.
So you choose team d?
Mmm, I think my stand has drifted a little. But I don’t like team a, because I don’t like giving face. It’s just a kind of politeness. Actually you don’t really have to really respoect other people to be polite. It’s just what we were taught form the time we were born. So I think team a is kind of
Mayr is neutral.
She’s always neutral, but today she’s being a bit more vague than usual.
You’re usually neutral.
Everyone can have their own opinion. We don’t necessarily all have to be the same. We all encounter different ideas. There’s no right or wrong. It’s just a concept.
Yes, mary is always neutral! Because we other people we prefer one side, but mary, she is an angel. Do you remember fanny, she said that too!
No, I just don’t quite good about arguig with others.
But everytime you have to choose a side, you’re always in the between.
So have you ever voted?
Yes, what’s your color
Hey, that’s not cool.
That’s different, that’s easy to decide. But here, it’s not clear.
That’s why I’m asking,w hat is your color?
She’s white, because she’s an angel
But doctors also wear white!
Because they have to be neutral.
I’m usually neutral, but sometimes I’m more extreme. I think I’m more neutral recently.
Really? I think you’re more extreme recently!
Oh, really?
Was us talking about mary just now, was that respectful?
Well, it doesn’t really matter, it’s just a discussion.
I think labeling people is disrespectful, even if you mean it nicely.
But I think this is an important question. Even if everyone is laughing and easy with each other, someone might still not be happy with the conversation. Especially for Chinese or Japanese, they don’t dare to share their true feelings. So I don’t know if joking with people is upsetting them.
Yes, and they may not feel respected by you.
So are they lacking social respect or inner respect from the group.
I think it’s an inner thing.
Okay, why?
It depends on how much you know about each other, when a group of friends talking about some jokes, one of them might feel uncompfortable, its kusually that others don’t know it, it might be their weakness that he hides from others, or a shadow from his or her childhood. From my point of view, sometimes I’ll tell one or two of my closer friends about what I feel about their conversations, because I don’t really feel comfortable about it, and don’t want to hear about it again, not that I’ll be mad, just that I don’t like it. You have to tell them first. If you don’t tell others, they’ll never know, so you can’t blame others not telling you
Why didn’t you just tell him exactly?
Because I didn’t want to break up the goodwill.
Sure, you kind of communicated, but just being…
If you just told him calmly, with out anger, you could have communicated your discomfort.
But I think he actually did get the message, even though you weren’t very obvious.
Actually I might have had the same reaction, I’’m not happy with the joke but I want to keep the balance.
So you actually were respectful to him…
But at the same time I lost respect in my heart.
So, that’s why polite is not equal to respect!
But, so how do you negotiate this kind of conflict, between face respect and heart respect? Vis a vis the daughter/mother, or the conference room joke.
It’s very hard to talk to older people, and to change their mind set. You have to find a idffferent way to do it, like by writing a letter.
What happened to your friend is very common in Taiwan, this kind of generation gap. It just takes time to make it work. You can’t solve it immediately. Like a long term relationship, You have to maintain it, and manage it. Like in my family, it’s about timing and the kind of approach.
Like, the advantages of sending a letter is that it gives them time to cool down. They have a chance to think about it. For those elderly people, the most important thing in their eyes is attitude. They actually don’t listen to words, they care about how you express, and don’t even realize what you are talking about.
This sounds like hierarchy.
You know what’s lucky? It’s that your firend is dealing with her mother. This kind of relationship won’t cause any injury
Well, not physically.
My ex-boyfriend said that parents would never hit their children.
That’s bullshit.
No, what I mean is, parents will always forgive their children.
That’s also bullshit!
But mother and daughter is the trickiest person.
But I want to ask, is, do they really listen to each other? Are they calme when they talke to each other.
Hey, that’s another point. If one person is willing to communicate with the other, but the other is not then what do you do?
It’s a vicious cycle.
But the worst is, if you treat someone bad, then they usually treat themselves bad.
Okay, but how do you get them to communicate with you? Writing a letter, sure, but if they still don’t want to?
Give them a gift! If you do something nice for them, they want to feel nicer towards you!
If I love you but you keep rejecting me, it wont’ hurt me at all!
That’s self confidence!
I would just keep asking you about positive thinking, it’s the same as confidence, it’s just learning how to love yourself, and love others, and you just learn from the mistakes.
Maybe, because it’s mother and daughter, so it’s really difficult to compromoise. It’s not something small, it’s about a person’s free will about her own life, so maybe they only have to wait for years to pass, and maybe some new things will happen.
I think both things, you have to both try and be patient to wait.
I think parents just want things the way things are. I think the parents should changer herself first. She denies to show her goodness to her mother. One way to change the situation, is to show warmth and break the ice.
But the mother has to change too. You can’t compromise on the one you love!
Oh, maybe the mother is thinking about for her own good.
Maybe the parents think they have more life experience, so they think they have better advice.
But that’s bullshit too, because we live in a different world!
But they force us! They are control freaks.
Your friend, she’s not alone!!!
Closing statements 20 seconds
Moderator
I think we should think much more deeply about respect
I liked today’s topic
I just think that you guys are very lovely, and I enjoy this class!
I think we have talk about respect deeply, because I think respect may be inner, but we also talk about…..[beep!]
I had a better chance to think more deeply about this topic in these two hours, because I first only thought about understanding, but now I’ve got some more to think about.
Team B
I think respect is a kind of understanding. There are many kinds of people and different character, habit, environments of in their growing process. So the most important part is understanding others. This is the best way to get along with others.
I think everyone has their right to live in the world, and everyone is equal. Even though its hard to accept others without expecting them to conform, we still find the balance of social behavior to us. there is a balance of the evil heart of our thought, ignoring others’ feelings and thinking you are more excellent than others in the world. It’s a balance between loving yourself and loving other people.
Team D:
I think team a and team b combined is my point. Team a is how you get along with others, and team b is, I think they’re both ways of getting along with others.
I think we all agree team a and b are similar, there’s some grey areas. It’s a culture things. When you do business and negotiate with different kinds of people , when with Chinese, you have to use Chinese ways to make things work. But what if you deal with a Jewish person. You probably have to do it a different way. I think that Willie brought up an interesting word, “understanding” because no one would hurt anyone else if they understood them. So how do you understand other people, and how do you understand understanding? Sometimes when we have communicate with people, but understanding is a difficult thing, you thing you’ve communicated, but in fact there’s a misunderstanding.
Moderator.
I think it’s hard to define accept. Is it something you pay to others, or you accept. I read all the way through the article. I looked at this guy Anderson’s behavior, and I wonder, is he worth respect. I can kind of agree that you have to understand others. But you can only understand someone when you stand in his shoes. But if you always use your own way to understand others, are you really understanding them, it’s not really respecting them. I mostly agree team a, team b, but I disagree a little bit at the same time.
Discussion
Were you saying that understanding is not the road to respect.
I think understanding is a very kind behavior, but it is not respect.
I think before we were talking about respect, there’s lots of things we have to learn. You have to know things first, then you have to understand, then you realize, then it comes to respect. So before respect there’s lots of things you have to learn, and embrace.
Is respect an attitude or a concept?
It’s more like an attitude, a surface, and a learning process. Because before respect, we probably make a lot of mistakes of ourselves. But before you have to have a process.
I think giving face is like respect to people who are older than you, like parents or boss.
Do you need understanding to give that kind of respect?
Some you don’t know them, and some you do, but you have to give them respect.
Are Mary and Charlie talking the same word?
So you seem to be talking team a!
Giving face!
But sometimes it’s more than that. Sometimes people do really good things, and you just have to respect them..
So team a is outer behaviour, and team b is inner thinking.
What an insight.
So team b is all about heart.
That’s why we couldn’t take a definite stand on team a or team b.
So team b is saying inner is better than outer, right?
But I think respect is more inner definition, because if you are just like mary said, if the respect is team a, what team a respect is is more polite to other people. And maybe if polite is giving face,
it’s not true respect.
Right! It’s political. So if we talke about respect, I think it’s more inner.
When you say political, what do you mean?
Why I don’t choose team a, it’s just because I don’t think it’s true, it’s not heartfelt, it’s shallow. But I think respect is deeper than that.
I think she’s totally right. The concept of team a is the same as my feleling. I also think there’s different levels of respect. So that’s why I’m team D
So you should join team B!
Wait, did you hear the last thing she said? Tell her again.
So that’s why I’m team D
Huh--?
So you think respect is also a social custom?
If you follow the social custom and make the things work, it’s one kind of respect.
How?
For Chinese, giving face is something you would take for granted when dealing with Chinese. You couldn’t deny it. Why don’t you open up your heart.
Wait, what do you mean?
Admit it, giving face is something you look down on. Take me for an example. When I was younger, I couldn’t realize this idea. But now I realize you have to accept the world as it is to learn. If you deny reality, you make things harder for yourself. For me, now, I’m still learning.
But I have a point that if team a is also correct, why I see many Chinese tv programs series about ancient china. When they are talking about gvt or blah blah blah, they are respect…
Hierarchy is everywhere!
No, I’m not talking about that. If I go to someones house, and they are higher level than me, and I’m very polite, but in my heart, I don’t respect him at all, do you know what I mean?
So then why do you go to his house? Then you don’t have to suffer this self struggle.
But if “Respect is ‘giving face’ and avoiding causing people to ‘lose face’ by observing proper social behavior and conforming with social custom.” Is this real respect.
I’m saying if you follow up social custom, that’s one kind of respect, it’s following social custom. You’re not pretending to do something you don’t like.
So isn’t team a pretending?
I think being polite is one level of respect.
I agree, it’s a social custome, right, I obey the social custome. But does respect come from your heart, or is it just from behavior.
Can’t it be a balanced way?
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying
No, but what I’m saying is, you can’t have black or white, there’s lots of grey. A balanced way is what makes you comfortable.
Many times I will come to this class I will mix my position of team a and b. but this time, I still think respect is an inner condition.
Yes, of course!
I don’t want to deny team a’s position, but it hink the definition of team a is more about polite, not respect. I’m not denying your position, I totally agree, but I think
I think you’re just stuck by something spontantious, or you do it on the surface. But it’s not a contrast thing, it’s not black kor white.
I don’t think they are contrasted.
Actually, you kind of are.
I kind of have a mixed opiionn. Because I think somehow polite is a kind of respect. It’s one of the social skills. Lyou need to live with others, so respect also means how much you can tolerate others, how much you can sacrifice your own dignity to accept others’ odd behaviour. So I think the concept of team a is a kind of respect, but it’s kind of fake.
See!!!!!
Hey, I know what you mean, it’s not that I don’t.
Because we have to struggle to get along in this world, so fake respect is necessary somehow. And at first I thought team b was truly respect others, but now I think its about tolerating people, sacrificing your dignity for the sake of others.
So daughter/mother. Daughter is not giving mother face, mother is not sacrificing dignity for sake of daughter.
See, this is where understanding comes in. if each can understand the other then they can respect the other.
I think the mother expect her daughter to conform to her own moral system. So she want to press her daughter to do what she want her to do.
I think it’s what, that’s what understanding is about. In my opinion, understanding is the thing that you can understand the reason others do it. From others point of view you can know that what he or she is doing is understandable, because they have their own considerations. I think the reason why is that when we see others have different actions or opinions from our expectation, we have a tendency to adjust them to our own side. But in fact if you can try to understand others, two or three or more people might have a chance to converse, and make better decision about the situation.
So exactly how is the mother supposted to understand the daughter, and vice versa.
I just found the definitionof team d on my own. Understanding when someone needs to be given face, understanding when things need to be more smooth, understanding that the daughter needs to be given more space, understanding that the mother needs
But don’t you think that what they each have mutually exclusive needs? I put lots of emphasis on understanding, but I think it’s just the first step. Then there has to be an attempt to communicate. It depends on the circumstances. Basically they have to talk to each other more about it. Like how my parents and I negotiate. First we have to state our needs, then we come up with a solution later. Just like what angela said, just like a political propaganda thing. Your decision has lots of things in the background. If htye just know your solution, the first reaction is to reject, because they don’t know why you think so, or why you decide to do so.
So understanding is the first step toward respect.
I think respect is an attitutde. You have to be willing to talk to each other, and then all things followj.
So you choose team d?
Mmm, I think my stand has drifted a little. But I don’t like team a, because I don’t like giving face. It’s just a kind of politeness. Actually you don’t really have to really respoect other people to be polite. It’s just what we were taught form the time we were born. So I think team a is kind of
Mayr is neutral.
She’s always neutral, but today she’s being a bit more vague than usual.
You’re usually neutral.
Everyone can have their own opinion. We don’t necessarily all have to be the same. We all encounter different ideas. There’s no right or wrong. It’s just a concept.
Yes, mary is always neutral! Because we other people we prefer one side, but mary, she is an angel. Do you remember fanny, she said that too!
No, I just don’t quite good about arguig with others.
But everytime you have to choose a side, you’re always in the between.
So have you ever voted?
Yes, what’s your color
Hey, that’s not cool.
That’s different, that’s easy to decide. But here, it’s not clear.
That’s why I’m asking,w hat is your color?
She’s white, because she’s an angel
But doctors also wear white!
Because they have to be neutral.
I’m usually neutral, but sometimes I’m more extreme. I think I’m more neutral recently.
Really? I think you’re more extreme recently!
Oh, really?
Was us talking about mary just now, was that respectful?
Well, it doesn’t really matter, it’s just a discussion.
I think labeling people is disrespectful, even if you mean it nicely.
But I think this is an important question. Even if everyone is laughing and easy with each other, someone might still not be happy with the conversation. Especially for Chinese or Japanese, they don’t dare to share their true feelings. So I don’t know if joking with people is upsetting them.
Yes, and they may not feel respected by you.
So are they lacking social respect or inner respect from the group.
I think it’s an inner thing.
Okay, why?
It depends on how much you know about each other, when a group of friends talking about some jokes, one of them might feel uncompfortable, its kusually that others don’t know it, it might be their weakness that he hides from others, or a shadow from his or her childhood. From my point of view, sometimes I’ll tell one or two of my closer friends about what I feel about their conversations, because I don’t really feel comfortable about it, and don’t want to hear about it again, not that I’ll be mad, just that I don’t like it. You have to tell them first. If you don’t tell others, they’ll never know, so you can’t blame others not telling you
Why didn’t you just tell him exactly?
Because I didn’t want to break up the goodwill.
Sure, you kind of communicated, but just being…
If you just told him calmly, with out anger, you could have communicated your discomfort.
But I think he actually did get the message, even though you weren’t very obvious.
Actually I might have had the same reaction, I’’m not happy with the joke but I want to keep the balance.
So you actually were respectful to him…
But at the same time I lost respect in my heart.
So, that’s why polite is not equal to respect!
But, so how do you negotiate this kind of conflict, between face respect and heart respect? Vis a vis the daughter/mother, or the conference room joke.
It’s very hard to talk to older people, and to change their mind set. You have to find a idffferent way to do it, like by writing a letter.
What happened to your friend is very common in Taiwan, this kind of generation gap. It just takes time to make it work. You can’t solve it immediately. Like a long term relationship, You have to maintain it, and manage it. Like in my family, it’s about timing and the kind of approach.
Like, the advantages of sending a letter is that it gives them time to cool down. They have a chance to think about it. For those elderly people, the most important thing in their eyes is attitude. They actually don’t listen to words, they care about how you express, and don’t even realize what you are talking about.
This sounds like hierarchy.
You know what’s lucky? It’s that your firend is dealing with her mother. This kind of relationship won’t cause any injury
Well, not physically.
My ex-boyfriend said that parents would never hit their children.
That’s bullshit.
No, what I mean is, parents will always forgive their children.
That’s also bullshit!
But mother and daughter is the trickiest person.
But I want to ask, is, do they really listen to each other? Are they calme when they talke to each other.
Hey, that’s another point. If one person is willing to communicate with the other, but the other is not then what do you do?
It’s a vicious cycle.
But the worst is, if you treat someone bad, then they usually treat themselves bad.
Okay, but how do you get them to communicate with you? Writing a letter, sure, but if they still don’t want to?
Give them a gift! If you do something nice for them, they want to feel nicer towards you!
If I love you but you keep rejecting me, it wont’ hurt me at all!
That’s self confidence!
I would just keep asking you about positive thinking, it’s the same as confidence, it’s just learning how to love yourself, and love others, and you just learn from the mistakes.
Maybe, because it’s mother and daughter, so it’s really difficult to compromoise. It’s not something small, it’s about a person’s free will about her own life, so maybe they only have to wait for years to pass, and maybe some new things will happen.
I think both things, you have to both try and be patient to wait.
I think parents just want things the way things are. I think the parents should changer herself first. She denies to show her goodness to her mother. One way to change the situation, is to show warmth and break the ice.
But the mother has to change too. You can’t compromise on the one you love!
Oh, maybe the mother is thinking about for her own good.
Maybe the parents think they have more life experience, so they think they have better advice.
But that’s bullshit too, because we live in a different world!
But they force us! They are control freaks.
Your friend, she’s not alone!!!
Closing statements 20 seconds
Moderator
I think we should think much more deeply about respect
I liked today’s topic
I just think that you guys are very lovely, and I enjoy this class!
I think we have talk about respect deeply, because I think respect may be inner, but we also talk about…..[beep!]
I had a better chance to think more deeply about this topic in these two hours, because I first only thought about understanding, but now I’ve got some more to think about.
Hsinchu Discussion of Entitlement
Pre-discussion:
On Voting—
Making wrong decision is better than making no decision at all, because you can learn from the mistake.
If you know them very well, and you know both of them are not very good, you still will vote for …
The better one. I still have some hope. If you don’t vote, one will still be picked, so you might as well try to get the better one ine.
Just now you said you cannot keep quiet when you see something wrong. I don’t mean elections. When you see something wrong.
Well, I don’t speak out often.
I know it’s difficult when the situation is complicated, we see lots of people keeping quite and not talking about the bad things around them and the think, it’s not my business.
It all depends. I don’t do it all the time. If there’s a risk you still have to protect yourself first. But if there’s a way I can do it without risk, I’ll do it. You have to go there and do it. If I’m safe, I can live to another day, to right another wrong.
But when you see teenagers with wrong opinions, do you try to tell them when it’s wrong?
Well, if it’s an emergency, you can call for help, and not just jump in for yourself. Doing something doesn’t mean you have to go in there.
I mean, if something not good happened, not dangerouse…
For example, when waiting to buy a ticket for movies, if someone cuts the line, I will say, politely of course, but I will say, are you in a hurry? If not, I got here first! You have to think first before you do it, but you can also get help.
You have to do it politely and subtly, but you have to do it.
But I mean something bad happen around you, is not a dangerous thing, maybe you find a colleage tries to interrupt other people’s marriage, or try to steal money from the company. Not such kind of instinct danger, just do bad things, would you keep quiet and let go and see it happen, or would you try to convince them?
I had a manager who got some bribes from a company, and she offers some bribes from her staff.
What would you do?
I would say, thanks, and not take it, but keep my mouth shut.
I would not work for this kind of boss.
Of course you say in your mind, I know who you are, I don’t want to work for you.
But if you don’t take the money, they’re more likely to try to hurt you.
So it’s difficult.
If you have little to lose, you can afford to be a big mouth, but if you have a lot to lose, you cant afford.
I’d like to join Team b, but with one condition, there’s a limit to the authority, they can’t do all of what they want all the time. The limit to freedom is authority.
Opening statements
For me, respect is Respect is accepting others’ personality, choices and actions without expecting them to conform to your own personality choices and actions. Perfect. For me, definitely.
Everyone has his own personality and actions, IF they are responsible for the result. Someone doing something bad, and he thinks it’s good, that’s fine, if he’s willing to take responsibility.
Respect is Respect is accepting others’ personality, choices and actions
Because ifi you don’t accept other people’s personality it’s difficult for me to respect you.
If it’s just about giving face, I can’t truly respect this person. It’s got to be about his personality, his corevalues, his decent beharious, etc. if these are all good, then I can sincerely respect him, not just only consider giving space and avoiding losing face. But I think, for example, we respect one great person in the world in history, it must be based on many things that person has done. But it’s not so easy to respect a person only knowing them a short period of time, because it’s too hard to know them in such a short period It takes a while to observand understand sb. but when you find out he’s got the right qualities, then you can.
So many children are taught to listen to others. We are taught to be the typical, to be like the model of what children should be. WE are look like weaker or less of ability to compare with others, like other countries or peope. But now, learn from the western countries, our students are encouraged to express our opinions. It looks like totally the opposite way. Now students and children always like to expres themselves, but don’t listen to others at all. In this situation, lots of arguments or struggles happen, because noone wants to communicate. This is why I say we have to respect other’s difference, but we shouldn’t hurt others because they are different from us. And we shouldn’t take advantage of others because we want to win or be superior to other.
Respect to others is generated from a deep heart, from someone you admire. His personality and heart make you admire them. So what I want to say jaqueline said better.
Team a;
I chose team I because it mentioned conforming with social customs. Team b did not address this. It’s important from a macro view. If a president from phillipine or south Africa comes…for instance, if he kills people, and he’s allowed to do it in his country, he still would not be welom here. It could work in his country, but not in our. “I can accept him without expecting him to conform to our choices” doesn’t cover this situation.
Discussion
People are different. How do you expect them
to conform to your own personality choices and actions?
You expect people to conform?
No, team a is about conforming to social custom. If I go to an Arabic country and always s want to eat pork, it’s not respectful to their social custom.
Ok, I have a question about team a. you mean you only observe proper social behavior. You don’t care about it’s true value? I mean, you just want to keep people from losing face? And you just observe their social custom? If the country has many bad rules, you think it’s right to respect these bad rule? It’s okay to respect a person who doesn’t have his own core values, and just obeys social custom? Do you think this is right?
Okay, I say I see this team a from a macro view, from social custom. If I go to India, where they think the cow is sacred, it’s not wrong or right, so I think I should respect this social custome. And antoher side, I think most social custom are good, is based on good ideas.
For example, if a tyrant kills a lot of people in his own country, do you still respect,…
No!
He’s still respected by his own people, you know what I mean?
So in that case, I wouldn’t’ respect him, and I wouldn’t invite him to Taiwan.
But I think it’s dangerous to only go by social custome. Because this will influence our humanity. If the social custom is not righteous…it will be very dangerous if the social custom is not moral. I think there are still many countries who don’t do the right thing…
The USA for example
…who are ruling their people in the wrong way. So it’s dangerous to only conform to social custom.
But your viewpoint is still that of team b. you’re not expecting them to to conform to your own personality choices and actions.
In team b you will still accept their actions. In team b you still face the same situation,
You’re judging them, its still not right.
So I don’t think we cannot judge people only by their proper social behavior, we need to look directly to their personality. I don’t think it’s right, I mean , if you just respect them for proper social behavior…what I mean is, there are still many countries without moral behavior, and the king rules them by bad rules. In that kind of country, I don’t think by kproper social behavior people do the righ thing, they just need to survive, so they need to do bad things in order to survivie.
I think that your question is, I will not accept this kind of person, because his behavior is also not respected by social custome. But I think team b would accept him, because you resepce all choices.
So you’re saying I expect others to follow my choices?
I’m saying team b means that I respect choices. There must be some sort of core value in everybody’s mind.
So you’re team a, that’s social custom.
I mean I cannot expect other people can follow my thought. But almost everybody has similar ideas about what is right and wrong, they have similar ideas about morals and humanity. So it’s not so difficult to judge appropriate behavior. It’s not so difficult to judge wrong and right social custome.
Youre saying there’s an across the board social value. No matter if they’re American or Chinese, still they have the same value there, so you can tell what’s good. It’s not difficult to tell good from bad.
Sure, so that’s why I think core vale is the same as social custom.
For me, core value and social custom has to conform to me. If they don’t conform to my judgement, I’ll drop it. If the social value goes against my values, I wn’t conform. They have to pass my own judgement.
I agree with this. For example, wearing slippers in a wedding social party. Some peole wil find it okay, but I won’t do it.
Killing people, I can’t accept.
If Taiwan were like the US, and invaded Iraq, would you support the troops.
But calling it an invasion, that makes it sound bad.
But call a spade a spade.
But what aobut darfur, there’s so much war and difficulty, and we go in to help, then that’s an intervention.
But you’re going in to someone else’s country with troops, that’s an invasion.
Also a macro view and micro view. You said country it’s a macro view. If you see some guy beating an old lady, would you do something.
If it’s in front of me, I’ll try to save the old lady, but that doesn’t mean I have to kill or hurt that guy.
But you’re trying to intervene, even that guy didn’t hurt you.
Yes, it’s a matter of survival.
So what if it’s a coutry king and his people?
I don’t have the power, then I couldn’t do it, or I would try to do it a different way. To always evoke a war to solve the problem, it’s just the quick and dirty way to solve the problem. There has to be a better way than killing each other.
I’m not in favor of war either. It’s too bloody, and I don’t think its right to solve problems by killing other people. So if I amn in a governt position, I don’t agree to invade iraq. Because it’s not our coutnry’s affairs, and they didn’t do bad things to our people, so why do we send soldiers to their country and intervene in sb’s affairs.
I don’t agree with that argument here. It is related to us sooner or later. Even if the war is only between Iraq and US, still it is our business. But I still don’t agree to go to war.
So, if you think that you should help a small person being attacked by a big person, do you think Taiwan should go to fight against the US in iraq?
What I mean is, if Taiwan is being attacked by China, then the US or the UN should help us.
Why?
Just like the old lady.
They’re not doing it for moral reasons! They’re doing it for their own self-interest! They know that if they don’t help us they will be in danger soon.
Why.
You know, political economic issue all involve.d
I don’t expect them to, I just think they should
There is no should. They’ll come because they need it.
I do agree with you
Let’s come back to respect. I respect people because I want them to respect me. So I’m kind of extreme on this point. I don’t really see it from a macro view, I see it from an individual view. I value the respect between people. To get that respect, you have to give it. And I want people to see it this way, we all respect each other, as long as we are all acting responsibly. If you are brave enough to say Im gonna do this, and I’ll take responsibility for the actions, then I’ll respect you for that.
I think that respect is a verb.
So I’ll respect you you respect me.
So ths is for countries, too. But anyway, let’s go to individual. What kind of respect shold be based on social customes. The guy bullies the old lady, but he respects you, should you respect him? Hould you just let him bully her?
If there’s the situation, I would jump in.
But you also respect the old lady’s needs.
You’re saying you’re worried he would also do it to you. You’re saying the behavior is not good, so it cant be allowed for anyone. So that’s social behavior, and conforming.
I don’t know why respect is so important to me.
Because you’ve struggled a lot in your life to respect yourself and to get respect from others.
I have a uestion. If oter people, if you respect yourself, and don’t care about if other people respect you or not, can you do it?
Do what?
Can y ou respect yourself without caring if other people respect you? Its difficult to ask others to respect you…
If you respect yourself, you naturally respect others, and so they will r espect you. I’ve seen this, when someone is disrespectful to themselves, they’re willing to disrespect others.
I want to see if respect is really the basis of conforming to social custom, it means we will make other people become like the victim. Like I said before, in the past students are taught to be ‘good’. Teachers or parents have a criteria or standard of a typical model. It means that we have all to follow only one criteria or typical model. We cant express our own opinions, or ask what we want, if our demands are against the typical model. Just like labels. Some students are labeled conforming or unconforming. But the standard or criteria is supposed by our custom, but I don’t think it is fair, or it is right, because we have to respect other’s difference. If we have only one criteria, we can’t express the diference of thoughts or ideas.
Of course I agree your popint. But in my definition, social custome is not so narrow, not just a model.
But there are also several kinds of modesl. In school, how to be a good student, in familes, how to be a good childe. In society,we have to be a good person. But what is the criteria for that? We’re expected to listen to others ideas on this only. Remember your gradschool experience: yo’re told not to be friends with certain people, because they’re bad people. And if someday you did bad things, your parents will say, usually you’re good, so it must be your bad friends amek you bad.
I remember that, but I think the bad students is not because they have bad grade. If we lable them baed its mostly because they fight or steal or do some thing that doesn’t conform to social custom.
But in my person experience, some people were labled bad for raising their hand to ask questions, because they think they’re just trying to make the teacher look bad.
But that seems to be the exception.
Sure it happens …
Wait be careful here, you’re accusing her of generalizing from her experience, but you are also generalizing from your experience.
But let me tell you a story, I had a classmates, who had really bad grades, but she was still the leader of the class, because eshe knows how to get peope to work together. So my teacher put her at the head of the class.
But you can also see in movies, in our society our students are taught to be listeners more than speakers. So I can say its when I was a child its not just mine, but others. Just because someone is an active person, he likes to express his opinion only, he was labled as a problem student.
So who labled them, the teacher?
So maybe he didn’t write ‘a bad student’.
It’s possible, I was ostracized in this way.
So it’s possible that someone is afraid to talk in class, because hes afraid someone will call him stupid. So now, the message is, you have to ask questions, and if you don’t, then maybe
So the message has changed, so I want to know how can what we know what is proper social custom, and what is right or wrong, if the standard changes?
You have to look inside yourself, what do you believe.
My question is, the realson why I don’t choose the team a.
I think we just need to look upon the principle, not upon the detailed changes. If you look at the principle, it’s easier to judge. But I still insist in team b, I think if we cannot only respect people by their proper social behavior, and we respect their mind, their personality, it will last a long.
But I’ll say, that incident I told you, when the teacher told me I was too loud, that’s when I started questioning social values.
Okay, I agree this point. Students have to wear uniforms to school, if the student doesn’t want to, how does this change your view.
Of course, it’s a uniform I’ll respect the uniform, so.
But the uniform is social conformity.
But of course I’ll give her a choice to go to a different school.
But that’s not a real choice!
Okay, I have a son who is so rebellious, and a daughter who doesn’t want to conform. I tell her, if you want to differently, then you have to accept the consequences of your actions. If you want to do this, you’ll get puinished. If you can accept that, its your choice.
So you’re teaching them to pick their battles.
I’m trying o teach them to shape their own value system. They have to take some risks, as a mother I have to advise them, but I let them make the choices.
Closing statements
Team a
30 sec
I think if you choose b, at some level you still have to follow social custom. Basically if we follow social customs, in some degree we are respectin others.
Team b
30 sec.
well, I think proper social behavior or social constant aries. It’s not easy to confirm. But the core values or morality is what people should respect.
1 min
I don’t think, in my opinion, respect cannot be based on social custome, because customs are changeable, but human values are not easily changeable. So I think respecit is accepting others’ personality because our core value is priceless, and humanity ispriceless, and it’s easy to tell good from bad.
Is till think respect it respecting other’s values, so I would choose to wear the uniform out of respect for the school. but it doesn’t mean that school should ignore my personality or choices. Like sue said, I can make some changes in my uniform to express my peronslity.
Socks! At my school we had the craziest socks.
I want to people to respect me and I want to respct people. Even their values are different than mine, I respect them. If the difference is very big, and I think it’ll cause problems in the future, then I will stand up to fight for my values, but that doesn’t mean I don’t respect them.
On Voting—
Making wrong decision is better than making no decision at all, because you can learn from the mistake.
If you know them very well, and you know both of them are not very good, you still will vote for …
The better one. I still have some hope. If you don’t vote, one will still be picked, so you might as well try to get the better one ine.
Just now you said you cannot keep quiet when you see something wrong. I don’t mean elections. When you see something wrong.
Well, I don’t speak out often.
I know it’s difficult when the situation is complicated, we see lots of people keeping quite and not talking about the bad things around them and the think, it’s not my business.
It all depends. I don’t do it all the time. If there’s a risk you still have to protect yourself first. But if there’s a way I can do it without risk, I’ll do it. You have to go there and do it. If I’m safe, I can live to another day, to right another wrong.
But when you see teenagers with wrong opinions, do you try to tell them when it’s wrong?
Well, if it’s an emergency, you can call for help, and not just jump in for yourself. Doing something doesn’t mean you have to go in there.
I mean, if something not good happened, not dangerouse…
For example, when waiting to buy a ticket for movies, if someone cuts the line, I will say, politely of course, but I will say, are you in a hurry? If not, I got here first! You have to think first before you do it, but you can also get help.
You have to do it politely and subtly, but you have to do it.
But I mean something bad happen around you, is not a dangerous thing, maybe you find a colleage tries to interrupt other people’s marriage, or try to steal money from the company. Not such kind of instinct danger, just do bad things, would you keep quiet and let go and see it happen, or would you try to convince them?
I had a manager who got some bribes from a company, and she offers some bribes from her staff.
What would you do?
I would say, thanks, and not take it, but keep my mouth shut.
I would not work for this kind of boss.
Of course you say in your mind, I know who you are, I don’t want to work for you.
But if you don’t take the money, they’re more likely to try to hurt you.
So it’s difficult.
If you have little to lose, you can afford to be a big mouth, but if you have a lot to lose, you cant afford.
I’d like to join Team b, but with one condition, there’s a limit to the authority, they can’t do all of what they want all the time. The limit to freedom is authority.
Opening statements
For me, respect is Respect is accepting others’ personality, choices and actions without expecting them to conform to your own personality choices and actions. Perfect. For me, definitely.
Everyone has his own personality and actions, IF they are responsible for the result. Someone doing something bad, and he thinks it’s good, that’s fine, if he’s willing to take responsibility.
Respect is Respect is accepting others’ personality, choices and actions
Because ifi you don’t accept other people’s personality it’s difficult for me to respect you.
If it’s just about giving face, I can’t truly respect this person. It’s got to be about his personality, his corevalues, his decent beharious, etc. if these are all good, then I can sincerely respect him, not just only consider giving space and avoiding losing face. But I think, for example, we respect one great person in the world in history, it must be based on many things that person has done. But it’s not so easy to respect a person only knowing them a short period of time, because it’s too hard to know them in such a short period It takes a while to observand understand sb. but when you find out he’s got the right qualities, then you can.
So many children are taught to listen to others. We are taught to be the typical, to be like the model of what children should be. WE are look like weaker or less of ability to compare with others, like other countries or peope. But now, learn from the western countries, our students are encouraged to express our opinions. It looks like totally the opposite way. Now students and children always like to expres themselves, but don’t listen to others at all. In this situation, lots of arguments or struggles happen, because noone wants to communicate. This is why I say we have to respect other’s difference, but we shouldn’t hurt others because they are different from us. And we shouldn’t take advantage of others because we want to win or be superior to other.
Respect to others is generated from a deep heart, from someone you admire. His personality and heart make you admire them. So what I want to say jaqueline said better.
Team a;
I chose team I because it mentioned conforming with social customs. Team b did not address this. It’s important from a macro view. If a president from phillipine or south Africa comes…for instance, if he kills people, and he’s allowed to do it in his country, he still would not be welom here. It could work in his country, but not in our. “I can accept him without expecting him to conform to our choices” doesn’t cover this situation.
Discussion
People are different. How do you expect them
to conform to your own personality choices and actions?
You expect people to conform?
No, team a is about conforming to social custom. If I go to an Arabic country and always s want to eat pork, it’s not respectful to their social custom.
Ok, I have a question about team a. you mean you only observe proper social behavior. You don’t care about it’s true value? I mean, you just want to keep people from losing face? And you just observe their social custom? If the country has many bad rules, you think it’s right to respect these bad rule? It’s okay to respect a person who doesn’t have his own core values, and just obeys social custom? Do you think this is right?
Okay, I say I see this team a from a macro view, from social custom. If I go to India, where they think the cow is sacred, it’s not wrong or right, so I think I should respect this social custome. And antoher side, I think most social custom are good, is based on good ideas.
For example, if a tyrant kills a lot of people in his own country, do you still respect,…
No!
He’s still respected by his own people, you know what I mean?
So in that case, I wouldn’t’ respect him, and I wouldn’t invite him to Taiwan.
But I think it’s dangerous to only go by social custome. Because this will influence our humanity. If the social custom is not righteous…it will be very dangerous if the social custom is not moral. I think there are still many countries who don’t do the right thing…
The USA for example
…who are ruling their people in the wrong way. So it’s dangerous to only conform to social custom.
But your viewpoint is still that of team b. you’re not expecting them to to conform to your own personality choices and actions.
In team b you will still accept their actions. In team b you still face the same situation,
You’re judging them, its still not right.
So I don’t think we cannot judge people only by their proper social behavior, we need to look directly to their personality. I don’t think it’s right, I mean , if you just respect them for proper social behavior…what I mean is, there are still many countries without moral behavior, and the king rules them by bad rules. In that kind of country, I don’t think by kproper social behavior people do the righ thing, they just need to survive, so they need to do bad things in order to survivie.
I think that your question is, I will not accept this kind of person, because his behavior is also not respected by social custome. But I think team b would accept him, because you resepce all choices.
So you’re saying I expect others to follow my choices?
I’m saying team b means that I respect choices. There must be some sort of core value in everybody’s mind.
So you’re team a, that’s social custom.
I mean I cannot expect other people can follow my thought. But almost everybody has similar ideas about what is right and wrong, they have similar ideas about morals and humanity. So it’s not so difficult to judge appropriate behavior. It’s not so difficult to judge wrong and right social custome.
Youre saying there’s an across the board social value. No matter if they’re American or Chinese, still they have the same value there, so you can tell what’s good. It’s not difficult to tell good from bad.
Sure, so that’s why I think core vale is the same as social custom.
For me, core value and social custom has to conform to me. If they don’t conform to my judgement, I’ll drop it. If the social value goes against my values, I wn’t conform. They have to pass my own judgement.
I agree with this. For example, wearing slippers in a wedding social party. Some peole wil find it okay, but I won’t do it.
Killing people, I can’t accept.
If Taiwan were like the US, and invaded Iraq, would you support the troops.
But calling it an invasion, that makes it sound bad.
But call a spade a spade.
But what aobut darfur, there’s so much war and difficulty, and we go in to help, then that’s an intervention.
But you’re going in to someone else’s country with troops, that’s an invasion.
Also a macro view and micro view. You said country it’s a macro view. If you see some guy beating an old lady, would you do something.
If it’s in front of me, I’ll try to save the old lady, but that doesn’t mean I have to kill or hurt that guy.
But you’re trying to intervene, even that guy didn’t hurt you.
Yes, it’s a matter of survival.
So what if it’s a coutry king and his people?
I don’t have the power, then I couldn’t do it, or I would try to do it a different way. To always evoke a war to solve the problem, it’s just the quick and dirty way to solve the problem. There has to be a better way than killing each other.
I’m not in favor of war either. It’s too bloody, and I don’t think its right to solve problems by killing other people. So if I amn in a governt position, I don’t agree to invade iraq. Because it’s not our coutnry’s affairs, and they didn’t do bad things to our people, so why do we send soldiers to their country and intervene in sb’s affairs.
I don’t agree with that argument here. It is related to us sooner or later. Even if the war is only between Iraq and US, still it is our business. But I still don’t agree to go to war.
So, if you think that you should help a small person being attacked by a big person, do you think Taiwan should go to fight against the US in iraq?
What I mean is, if Taiwan is being attacked by China, then the US or the UN should help us.
Why?
Just like the old lady.
They’re not doing it for moral reasons! They’re doing it for their own self-interest! They know that if they don’t help us they will be in danger soon.
Why.
You know, political economic issue all involve.d
I don’t expect them to, I just think they should
There is no should. They’ll come because they need it.
I do agree with you
Let’s come back to respect. I respect people because I want them to respect me. So I’m kind of extreme on this point. I don’t really see it from a macro view, I see it from an individual view. I value the respect between people. To get that respect, you have to give it. And I want people to see it this way, we all respect each other, as long as we are all acting responsibly. If you are brave enough to say Im gonna do this, and I’ll take responsibility for the actions, then I’ll respect you for that.
I think that respect is a verb.
So I’ll respect you you respect me.
So ths is for countries, too. But anyway, let’s go to individual. What kind of respect shold be based on social customes. The guy bullies the old lady, but he respects you, should you respect him? Hould you just let him bully her?
If there’s the situation, I would jump in.
But you also respect the old lady’s needs.
You’re saying you’re worried he would also do it to you. You’re saying the behavior is not good, so it cant be allowed for anyone. So that’s social behavior, and conforming.
I don’t know why respect is so important to me.
Because you’ve struggled a lot in your life to respect yourself and to get respect from others.
I have a uestion. If oter people, if you respect yourself, and don’t care about if other people respect you or not, can you do it?
Do what?
Can y ou respect yourself without caring if other people respect you? Its difficult to ask others to respect you…
If you respect yourself, you naturally respect others, and so they will r espect you. I’ve seen this, when someone is disrespectful to themselves, they’re willing to disrespect others.
I want to see if respect is really the basis of conforming to social custom, it means we will make other people become like the victim. Like I said before, in the past students are taught to be ‘good’. Teachers or parents have a criteria or standard of a typical model. It means that we have all to follow only one criteria or typical model. We cant express our own opinions, or ask what we want, if our demands are against the typical model. Just like labels. Some students are labeled conforming or unconforming. But the standard or criteria is supposed by our custom, but I don’t think it is fair, or it is right, because we have to respect other’s difference. If we have only one criteria, we can’t express the diference of thoughts or ideas.
Of course I agree your popint. But in my definition, social custome is not so narrow, not just a model.
But there are also several kinds of modesl. In school, how to be a good student, in familes, how to be a good childe. In society,we have to be a good person. But what is the criteria for that? We’re expected to listen to others ideas on this only. Remember your gradschool experience: yo’re told not to be friends with certain people, because they’re bad people. And if someday you did bad things, your parents will say, usually you’re good, so it must be your bad friends amek you bad.
I remember that, but I think the bad students is not because they have bad grade. If we lable them baed its mostly because they fight or steal or do some thing that doesn’t conform to social custom.
But in my person experience, some people were labled bad for raising their hand to ask questions, because they think they’re just trying to make the teacher look bad.
But that seems to be the exception.
Sure it happens …
Wait be careful here, you’re accusing her of generalizing from her experience, but you are also generalizing from your experience.
But let me tell you a story, I had a classmates, who had really bad grades, but she was still the leader of the class, because eshe knows how to get peope to work together. So my teacher put her at the head of the class.
But you can also see in movies, in our society our students are taught to be listeners more than speakers. So I can say its when I was a child its not just mine, but others. Just because someone is an active person, he likes to express his opinion only, he was labled as a problem student.
So who labled them, the teacher?
So maybe he didn’t write ‘a bad student’.
It’s possible, I was ostracized in this way.
So it’s possible that someone is afraid to talk in class, because hes afraid someone will call him stupid. So now, the message is, you have to ask questions, and if you don’t, then maybe
So the message has changed, so I want to know how can what we know what is proper social custom, and what is right or wrong, if the standard changes?
You have to look inside yourself, what do you believe.
My question is, the realson why I don’t choose the team a.
I think we just need to look upon the principle, not upon the detailed changes. If you look at the principle, it’s easier to judge. But I still insist in team b, I think if we cannot only respect people by their proper social behavior, and we respect their mind, their personality, it will last a long.
But I’ll say, that incident I told you, when the teacher told me I was too loud, that’s when I started questioning social values.
Okay, I agree this point. Students have to wear uniforms to school, if the student doesn’t want to, how does this change your view.
Of course, it’s a uniform I’ll respect the uniform, so.
But the uniform is social conformity.
But of course I’ll give her a choice to go to a different school.
But that’s not a real choice!
Okay, I have a son who is so rebellious, and a daughter who doesn’t want to conform. I tell her, if you want to differently, then you have to accept the consequences of your actions. If you want to do this, you’ll get puinished. If you can accept that, its your choice.
So you’re teaching them to pick their battles.
I’m trying o teach them to shape their own value system. They have to take some risks, as a mother I have to advise them, but I let them make the choices.
Closing statements
Team a
30 sec
I think if you choose b, at some level you still have to follow social custom. Basically if we follow social customs, in some degree we are respectin others.
Team b
30 sec.
well, I think proper social behavior or social constant aries. It’s not easy to confirm. But the core values or morality is what people should respect.
1 min
I don’t think, in my opinion, respect cannot be based on social custome, because customs are changeable, but human values are not easily changeable. So I think respecit is accepting others’ personality because our core value is priceless, and humanity ispriceless, and it’s easy to tell good from bad.
Is till think respect it respecting other’s values, so I would choose to wear the uniform out of respect for the school. but it doesn’t mean that school should ignore my personality or choices. Like sue said, I can make some changes in my uniform to express my peronslity.
Socks! At my school we had the craziest socks.
I want to people to respect me and I want to respct people. Even their values are different than mine, I respect them. If the difference is very big, and I think it’ll cause problems in the future, then I will stand up to fight for my values, but that doesn’t mean I don’t respect them.
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