Taipei Discussion of Entitlement

Opening statements
Team B
I think respect is a kind of understanding. There are many kinds of people and different character, habit, environments of in their growing process. So the most important part is understanding others. This is the best way to get along with others.

I think everyone has their right to live in the world, and everyone is equal. Even though its hard to accept others without expecting them to conform, we still find the balance of social behavior to us. there is a balance of the evil heart of our thought, ignoring others’ feelings and thinking you are more excellent than others in the world. It’s a balance between loving yourself and loving other people.

Team D:
I think team a and team b combined is my point. Team a is how you get along with others, and team b is, I think they’re both ways of getting along with others.

I think we all agree team a and b are similar, there’s some grey areas. It’s a culture things. When you do business and negotiate with different kinds of people , when with Chinese, you have to use Chinese ways to make things work. But what if you deal with a Jewish person. You probably have to do it a different way. I think that Willie brought up an interesting word, “understanding” because no one would hurt anyone else if they understood them. So how do you understand other people, and how do you understand understanding? Sometimes when we have communicate with people, but understanding is a difficult thing, you thing you’ve communicated, but in fact there’s a misunderstanding.


Moderator.
I think it’s hard to define accept. Is it something you pay to others, or you accept. I read all the way through the article. I looked at this guy Anderson’s behavior, and I wonder, is he worth respect. I can kind of agree that you have to understand others. But you can only understand someone when you stand in his shoes. But if you always use your own way to understand others, are you really understanding them, it’s not really respecting them. I mostly agree team a, team b, but I disagree a little bit at the same time.

Discussion
Were you saying that understanding is not the road to respect.

I think understanding is a very kind behavior, but it is not respect.

I think before we were talking about respect, there’s lots of things we have to learn. You have to know things first, then you have to understand, then you realize, then it comes to respect. So before respect there’s lots of things you have to learn, and embrace.

Is respect an attitude or a concept?

It’s more like an attitude, a surface, and a learning process. Because before respect, we probably make a lot of mistakes of ourselves. But before you have to have a process.

I think giving face is like respect to people who are older than you, like parents or boss.

Do you need understanding to give that kind of respect?

Some you don’t know them, and some you do, but you have to give them respect.

Are Mary and Charlie talking the same word?

So you seem to be talking team a!

Giving face!

But sometimes it’s more than that. Sometimes people do really good things, and you just have to respect them..

So team a is outer behaviour, and team b is inner thinking.

What an insight.

So team b is all about heart.

That’s why we couldn’t take a definite stand on team a or team b.

So team b is saying inner is better than outer, right?

But I think respect is more inner definition, because if you are just like mary said, if the respect is team a, what team a respect is is more polite to other people. And maybe if polite is giving face,

it’s not true respect.

Right! It’s political. So if we talke about respect, I think it’s more inner.

When you say political, what do you mean?

Why I don’t choose team a, it’s just because I don’t think it’s true, it’s not heartfelt, it’s shallow. But I think respect is deeper than that.

I think she’s totally right. The concept of team a is the same as my feleling. I also think there’s different levels of respect. So that’s why I’m team D

So you should join team B!

Wait, did you hear the last thing she said? Tell her again.

So that’s why I’m team D

Huh--?

So you think respect is also a social custom?

If you follow the social custom and make the things work, it’s one kind of respect.

How?

For Chinese, giving face is something you would take for granted when dealing with Chinese. You couldn’t deny it. Why don’t you open up your heart.

Wait, what do you mean?

Admit it, giving face is something you look down on. Take me for an example. When I was younger, I couldn’t realize this idea. But now I realize you have to accept the world as it is to learn. If you deny reality, you make things harder for yourself. For me, now, I’m still learning.

But I have a point that if team a is also correct, why I see many Chinese tv programs series about ancient china. When they are talking about gvt or blah blah blah, they are respect…

Hierarchy is everywhere!

No, I’m not talking about that. If I go to someones house, and they are higher level than me, and I’m very polite, but in my heart, I don’t respect him at all, do you know what I mean?

So then why do you go to his house? Then you don’t have to suffer this self struggle.

But if “Respect is ‘giving face’ and avoiding causing people to ‘lose face’ by observing proper social behavior and conforming with social custom.” Is this real respect.

I’m saying if you follow up social custom, that’s one kind of respect, it’s following social custom. You’re not pretending to do something you don’t like.

So isn’t team a pretending?

I think being polite is one level of respect.

I agree, it’s a social custome, right, I obey the social custome. But does respect come from your heart, or is it just from behavior.

Can’t it be a balanced way?

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying

No, but what I’m saying is, you can’t have black or white, there’s lots of grey. A balanced way is what makes you comfortable.

Many times I will come to this class I will mix my position of team a and b. but this time, I still think respect is an inner condition.

Yes, of course!

I don’t want to deny team a’s position, but it hink the definition of team a is more about polite, not respect. I’m not denying your position, I totally agree, but I think

I think you’re just stuck by something spontantious, or you do it on the surface. But it’s not a contrast thing, it’s not black kor white.

I don’t think they are contrasted.

Actually, you kind of are.

I kind of have a mixed opiionn. Because I think somehow polite is a kind of respect. It’s one of the social skills. Lyou need to live with others, so respect also means how much you can tolerate others, how much you can sacrifice your own dignity to accept others’ odd behaviour. So I think the concept of team a is a kind of respect, but it’s kind of fake.

See!!!!!

Hey, I know what you mean, it’s not that I don’t.

Because we have to struggle to get along in this world, so fake respect is necessary somehow. And at first I thought team b was truly respect others, but now I think its about tolerating people, sacrificing your dignity for the sake of others.

So daughter/mother. Daughter is not giving mother face, mother is not sacrificing dignity for sake of daughter.

See, this is where understanding comes in. if each can understand the other then they can respect the other.

I think the mother expect her daughter to conform to her own moral system. So she want to press her daughter to do what she want her to do.

I think it’s what, that’s what understanding is about. In my opinion, understanding is the thing that you can understand the reason others do it. From others point of view you can know that what he or she is doing is understandable, because they have their own considerations. I think the reason why is that when we see others have different actions or opinions from our expectation, we have a tendency to adjust them to our own side. But in fact if you can try to understand others, two or three or more people might have a chance to converse, and make better decision about the situation.

So exactly how is the mother supposted to understand the daughter, and vice versa.

I just found the definitionof team d on my own. Understanding when someone needs to be given face, understanding when things need to be more smooth, understanding that the daughter needs to be given more space, understanding that the mother needs

But don’t you think that what they each have mutually exclusive needs? I put lots of emphasis on understanding, but I think it’s just the first step. Then there has to be an attempt to communicate. It depends on the circumstances. Basically they have to talk to each other more about it. Like how my parents and I negotiate. First we have to state our needs, then we come up with a solution later. Just like what angela said, just like a political propaganda thing. Your decision has lots of things in the background. If htye just know your solution, the first reaction is to reject, because they don’t know why you think so, or why you decide to do so.
So understanding is the first step toward respect.
I think respect is an attitutde. You have to be willing to talk to each other, and then all things followj.

So you choose team d?

Mmm, I think my stand has drifted a little. But I don’t like team a, because I don’t like giving face. It’s just a kind of politeness. Actually you don’t really have to really respoect other people to be polite. It’s just what we were taught form the time we were born. So I think team a is kind of

Mayr is neutral.

She’s always neutral, but today she’s being a bit more vague than usual.

You’re usually neutral.

Everyone can have their own opinion. We don’t necessarily all have to be the same. We all encounter different ideas. There’s no right or wrong. It’s just a concept.

Yes, mary is always neutral! Because we other people we prefer one side, but mary, she is an angel. Do you remember fanny, she said that too!

No, I just don’t quite good about arguig with others.

But everytime you have to choose a side, you’re always in the between.

So have you ever voted?

Yes, what’s your color

Hey, that’s not cool.

That’s different, that’s easy to decide. But here, it’s not clear.

That’s why I’m asking,w hat is your color?

She’s white, because she’s an angel

But doctors also wear white!

Because they have to be neutral.


I’m usually neutral, but sometimes I’m more extreme. I think I’m more neutral recently.

Really? I think you’re more extreme recently!

Oh, really?

Was us talking about mary just now, was that respectful?

Well, it doesn’t really matter, it’s just a discussion.

I think labeling people is disrespectful, even if you mean it nicely.

But I think this is an important question. Even if everyone is laughing and easy with each other, someone might still not be happy with the conversation. Especially for Chinese or Japanese, they don’t dare to share their true feelings. So I don’t know if joking with people is upsetting them.

Yes, and they may not feel respected by you.

So are they lacking social respect or inner respect from the group.

I think it’s an inner thing.

Okay, why?

It depends on how much you know about each other, when a group of friends talking about some jokes, one of them might feel uncompfortable, its kusually that others don’t know it, it might be their weakness that he hides from others, or a shadow from his or her childhood. From my point of view, sometimes I’ll tell one or two of my closer friends about what I feel about their conversations, because I don’t really feel comfortable about it, and don’t want to hear about it again, not that I’ll be mad, just that I don’t like it. You have to tell them first. If you don’t tell others, they’ll never know, so you can’t blame others not telling you

Why didn’t you just tell him exactly?

Because I didn’t want to break up the goodwill.

Sure, you kind of communicated, but just being…
If you just told him calmly, with out anger, you could have communicated your discomfort.

But I think he actually did get the message, even though you weren’t very obvious.

Actually I might have had the same reaction, I’’m not happy with the joke but I want to keep the balance.

So you actually were respectful to him…

But at the same time I lost respect in my heart.

So, that’s why polite is not equal to respect!

But, so how do you negotiate this kind of conflict, between face respect and heart respect? Vis a vis the daughter/mother, or the conference room joke.

It’s very hard to talk to older people, and to change their mind set. You have to find a idffferent way to do it, like by writing a letter.

What happened to your friend is very common in Taiwan, this kind of generation gap. It just takes time to make it work. You can’t solve it immediately. Like a long term relationship, You have to maintain it, and manage it. Like in my family, it’s about timing and the kind of approach.

Like, the advantages of sending a letter is that it gives them time to cool down. They have a chance to think about it. For those elderly people, the most important thing in their eyes is attitude. They actually don’t listen to words, they care about how you express, and don’t even realize what you are talking about.

This sounds like hierarchy.

You know what’s lucky? It’s that your firend is dealing with her mother. This kind of relationship won’t cause any injury

Well, not physically.

My ex-boyfriend said that parents would never hit their children.

That’s bullshit.

No, what I mean is, parents will always forgive their children.

That’s also bullshit!

But mother and daughter is the trickiest person.

But I want to ask, is, do they really listen to each other? Are they calme when they talke to each other.


Hey, that’s another point. If one person is willing to communicate with the other, but the other is not then what do you do?

It’s a vicious cycle.

But the worst is, if you treat someone bad, then they usually treat themselves bad.

Okay, but how do you get them to communicate with you? Writing a letter, sure, but if they still don’t want to?

Give them a gift! If you do something nice for them, they want to feel nicer towards you!

If I love you but you keep rejecting me, it wont’ hurt me at all!

That’s self confidence!

I would just keep asking you about positive thinking, it’s the same as confidence, it’s just learning how to love yourself, and love others, and you just learn from the mistakes.

Maybe, because it’s mother and daughter, so it’s really difficult to compromoise. It’s not something small, it’s about a person’s free will about her own life, so maybe they only have to wait for years to pass, and maybe some new things will happen.

I think both things, you have to both try and be patient to wait.

I think parents just want things the way things are. I think the parents should changer herself first. She denies to show her goodness to her mother. One way to change the situation, is to show warmth and break the ice.

But the mother has to change too. You can’t compromise on the one you love!

Oh, maybe the mother is thinking about for her own good.

Maybe the parents think they have more life experience, so they think they have better advice.

But that’s bullshit too, because we live in a different world!

But they force us! They are control freaks.

Your friend, she’s not alone!!!


Closing statements 20 seconds
Moderator
I think we should think much more deeply about respect

I liked today’s topic

I just think that you guys are very lovely, and I enjoy this class!

I think we have talk about respect deeply, because I think respect may be inner, but we also talk about…..[beep!]

I had a better chance to think more deeply about this topic in these two hours, because I first only thought about understanding, but now I’ve got some more to think about.

沒有留言:

張貼留言

這是意見留言版! 我真心想要聽到每個人想法及看法,因此,拜托留下你的署名!