原來,我們女性是可以呼風喚雨的呢！別小看我們自己！
語出驚人 伊斯蘭教長者：女性行為不檢 導致地震
2010-04-20 新聞速報 【中時電子報/綜合報導】
根據英國衛報報導，一名伊朗籍的伊斯蘭教長者表示，近來地球多災多難，強震不斷，乃是因女性行為失序、衣著過於暴露所導致的後果；而伊朗總統馬丁加德稍早也語出驚人地預言，德黑蘭將會有強震來襲。
Next English Discussion on Sunday, 4/25 3pm
Hello! Our next English Discussion meeting will be held at The Studio, on Sunday April 25th at 3pm.
The topic is "The Case for Flip Flops and Flowing Robes", a discussion of clothes women are required to wear in order to appear feminine, and whether 'appearing feminine' is useful.
The topic is "The Case for Flip Flops and Flowing Robes", a discussion of clothes women are required to wear in order to appear feminine, and whether 'appearing feminine' is useful.
Next RethinkingOurselves meeting on Sunday 2/7
Hey folks! Because we kinda sorta just had a really good chat last meeting, we never got to the article. So we're going to do it for our next meeting, on Sunday, 2/7 @ 3pm, at the Catmints Cafe.
羅斯福路二段101巷9號, (捷運古亭3號出口) (02)8369-1271
Roosevelt Rd, Sec 2, Lane 101, No. 9. MRT Kuting Exit No. 3.
For the article please see the post below.
See you there!
羅斯福路二段101巷9號, (捷運古亭3號出口) (02)8369-1271
Roosevelt Rd, Sec 2, Lane 101, No. 9. MRT Kuting Exit No. 3.
For the article please see the post below.
See you there!
Next RethinkingOurselves meeting: Sunday, 1/17
Hello all! The next RethinkingOurselves meeting (in English) is taking place on Sunday, 1/17 at 3pm, at the Catmints Cafe.
羅斯福路二段101巷9號, (捷運古亭3號出口) (02)8369-1271
Roosevelt Rd, Sec 2, Lane 101, No. 9. MRT Kuting Exit No. 3
The article we are discussing is from the Economist.
Women in the Workforce
There is a short related article that is worth reading, too, for extra argumentative (ha!) value.
Womenenomics
There are comments to the story, too. Fanny notes that they are sure to piss me (Angela) off. Since I'm enjoying my Wednesday, I'm going to leave this for later in the week. However, I'm sure they'll be very instructive in illustrating concepts that the article glossed over.
Comments to Women in the Workforce article.
Happy reading!
羅斯福路二段101巷9號, (捷運古亭3號出口) (02)8369-1271
Roosevelt Rd, Sec 2, Lane 101, No. 9. MRT Kuting Exit No. 3
The article we are discussing is from the Economist.
Women in the Workforce
There is a short related article that is worth reading, too, for extra argumentative (ha!) value.
Womenenomics
There are comments to the story, too. Fanny notes that they are sure to piss me (Angela) off. Since I'm enjoying my Wednesday, I'm going to leave this for later in the week. However, I'm sure they'll be very instructive in illustrating concepts that the article glossed over.
Comments to Women in the Workforce article.
Happy reading!
丈夫眼中的老婆
日劇「人妻的遊戲」中，那些丈夫不是把妻子當成裝飾品(decoration)，就是家事及性事機器人(robots for housekeeping and sex)。我感到很生氣。
而且，老婆把錢花去哪裡，花了多少錢，都必須跟丈夫報告。甚至，老婆跟誰見面，都必須經過丈夫同意。我感到很生氣。
若不是這些老婆被要求放棄工作，在家幫男人打掃洗衣，省去男人的麻煩，這些男人有辦法專心工作、分心花天酒地、分心養小老婆嗎? !! 我很生氣。
而這些男人要求老婆放棄工作、在家當黃臉婆，自己就覺得在外面賺錢是很了不起的事情，嫌棄老婆沒知識，罵老婆是笨蛋，卻沒有想過：他們的老婆是為了誰而犧牲？這些老婆在結婚前，哪一個不是知識份子？
我對家庭裡，丈夫、爸爸，這種覺得「自己最辛苦」、「只有自己為了家而付出」的「自以為是」(self-righteous)的想法，很生氣。
而且，老婆把錢花去哪裡，花了多少錢，都必須跟丈夫報告。甚至，老婆跟誰見面，都必須經過丈夫同意。我感到很生氣。
若不是這些老婆被要求放棄工作，在家幫男人打掃洗衣，省去男人的麻煩，這些男人有辦法專心工作、分心花天酒地、分心養小老婆嗎? !! 我很生氣。
而這些男人要求老婆放棄工作、在家當黃臉婆，自己就覺得在外面賺錢是很了不起的事情，嫌棄老婆沒知識，罵老婆是笨蛋，卻沒有想過：他們的老婆是為了誰而犧牲？這些老婆在結婚前，哪一個不是知識份子？
我對家庭裡，丈夫、爸爸，這種覺得「自己最辛苦」、「只有自己為了家而付出」的「自以為是」(self-righteous)的想法，很生氣。
所謂的'真實的'語言 'Factual' Language
本文給了很好的例子解釋 所謂的'真實的'語言對於事實會呈現不同的意義.
特別是給了例子解釋報紙新聞標題如何模糊了男人對於性暴力所應擔負的責任, 讓性侵與家暴變成女人的責任. 我們要讓男人自我省察,不要成為加害者
This article gives excellent examples of how 'factual' language can present the apparent meaning of facts very differently.
It especially gives good examples of how men are disappeared from headlines about rape, giving rise to the idea that women are somehow responsible for their own rapes, rather than saying that men had better stop raping.
特別是給了例子解釋報紙新聞標題如何模糊了男人對於性暴力所應擔負的責任, 讓性侵與家暴變成女人的責任. 我們要讓男人自我省察,不要成為加害者
This article gives excellent examples of how 'factual' language can present the apparent meaning of facts very differently.
It especially gives good examples of how men are disappeared from headlines about rape, giving rise to the idea that women are somehow responsible for their own rapes, rather than saying that men had better stop raping.
I Want a Twenty-Four-Hour Truce During Which There Is No Rape
This is a difficult article. Difficult in that it is the transcript of a long speech. And difficult because Andrea Dworkin speaks the unvarnished truth. No prettiness, no vagueness. So it is powerful, and also hard to hear. I've read it twice in the past ten years, and only reading it this third time do I finally realize how clearly and exactly she lays out the situation. It was I who had to clean out my ears: she was speaking as clearly the whole time.
Edited to add: Stacy feels this article (in Chinese) is related to the above. I haven't read it yet, but will, before we meet.
Edited to add: I've read it now, and there is a new post about it here.
This is a difficult article. Difficult in that it is the transcript of a long speech. And difficult because Andrea Dworkin speaks the unvarnished truth. No prettiness, no vagueness. So it is powerful, and also hard to hear. I've read it twice in the past ten years, and only reading it this third time do I finally realize how clearly and exactly she lays out the situation. It was I who had to clean out my ears: she was speaking as clearly the whole time.
Edited to add: Stacy feels this article (in Chinese) is related to the above. I haven't read it yet, but will, before we meet.
Edited to add: I've read it now, and there is a new post about it here.
Trust
Our next meeting is in our new space!! Yay!!
Rethinkingourselves finally has its own clubhouse!
The new space is called "Three Circles", and the address is
和平東路一段177號4F之10 (Hoping East Road, Sec. 1, No. 177, 4F-10).
The article this week is from Shakesville. It's very long, so if you don't have time, just read the words in boldface. (I've also simplified it a bit from the original.) Oh, and hey, here's an excellent translator for individual words, and here's a good one for short phrases. Cut, paste, and understand! :) They're awesome, I use them all the time for reading and writing chinese.
If I played by misogynists' rules, specifically the one that dictates it only takes one woman doing one Mean or Duplicitous or Disrespectful or Unlawful or otherwise Bad Thing to justify hatred of all women, I would have plenty of justification for hating men, if I wanted to.
Our next meeting is this Sunday, 10/11 at 3pm. The moderator is Angela.
The article this week is from Shakesville. It's very long, so if you don't have time, just read the words in boldface. (I've also simplified it a bit from the original.) Oh, and hey, here's an excellent translator for individual words, and here's a good one for short phrases. Cut, paste, and understand! :) They're awesome, I use them all the time for reading and writing chinese.
Excerpts from A Terrible Bargain We Have Regretfully Struck:
If I played by misogynists' rules, specifically the one that dictates it only takes one woman doing one Mean or Duplicitous or Disrespectful or Unlawful or otherwise Bad Thing to justify hatred of all women, I would have plenty of justification for hating men, if I wanted to.
Next meeting is NEXT WEEK, 9/13!
It's a rethinkingourselves bonus meeting! Our next meeting is next sunday, September 13, at Catmints Cafe.
Angela is the moderator.
Actually, the reason we're doing the next meeting so soon is because it's a follow-up topic. We talked about privilege this week, and how not recognizing the privilege of being the race in power makes it difficult for white people to make the world a better place. We also talked about how not recognizing their own privilege makes it difficult for men to make the world a better place.
Angela is the moderator.
Actually, the reason we're doing the next meeting so soon is because it's a follow-up topic. We talked about privilege this week, and how not recognizing the privilege of being the race in power makes it difficult for white people to make the world a better place. We also talked about how not recognizing their own privilege makes it difficult for men to make the world a better place.
何謂女姓主義？ What is Feminism?
女性主義者的革命尚未發生，可是我們的世界需要這種大思考改革。 不人道的父權制度被全世界拒絕是時間早晚的問題。所謂的女性主義者應該叫做人道主義。父權制度上所指的「人」其實是男人，女人不包括在內。因此，父權制度所謂的「人道主義」不包括對待女性。 所以女性主義只能叫做女性主義，不能叫做人道主義。
大體上說，在父權制度上，女人被對待的方式相當於動物被對待的方式。換句話說，控制女人的觀點是從控制動物的觀點而來的。在歷史上，當男生控制起動物的生殖來，動物就成了他們的資產。在我們的文化上，到現在孩子還算是一種資產，這樣一來男生為了維持他們的資產，所以控制起女人的生育。因此，男性必須把女性與孩子們當成資產一樣，他們不可讓女人與孩子們成為有自由意志的「人」。
我們換一個方面來說，很多人說女性主義者的工作是讓男女平等。事實上並非如此。女性主義者不但不是要把機會平均分給男性與女性，這麼大規模的工作反而不是女性主義者的範圍。
女性主義者只是要所有人接受與承認「女人就是人」這個簡單的概念。所謂的人就是有自由意志、有完整身份、有真實存在的情況，而在自己的命運舞台上當演員。所謂的「女性主義者」就是「承認女人就是人」的主義。
This essay is one of my first ever composed in Chinese. (Yay to rockin’ that two-month intensive Chinese course this summer!) Here’s a sentence by sentence translation:
The feminist revolution has not yet happened, but the world badly needs a radical change in thinking. It’s really only a matter of time before the world rejects the inhumane system of patriarchy.
What’s called ‘feminism’ should actually be called ‘humanism’. In our patriarchal culture, what is called ‘human’ actually means ‘man’. Women aren’t really included in this term. So when we in this patriarchy talk about ‘humanism’ it doesn’t really include women. And so feminism can only be called ‘feminism’ and not ‘humanism’.
In general, under the patriarchy, women are considered to be in the same category as animals. It’s like this: the idea of controlling women comes from the original concept of controlling animals. When men first began controlling animals’ reproduction, animals became property. In our culture, even now children are still considered to be a kind of propery, and so in this way, men control women’s reproduction in order to protect their property. In doing so men turn women and children into a form of property, preventing them having the social status of free willed volitional humans.
Let’s look at this in a different way. A lot of people say that the aim of feminism is equality between men and women. Actually this is not the case. The work of feminism is not to give women and men equal opportunities, such a large scale work is outside feminism’s scope. Feminism just wants people to accept and simply recognize that women are human beings: human beings possessing free will and intelligent volition, who have complete identities, who live their own realities, and who are actors on the stage of their own destiny.
When we say ‘feminism’, what we mean is ‘recognizing that women are human beings.’
大體上說，在父權制度上，女人被對待的方式相當於動物被對待的方式。換句話說，控制女人的觀點是從控制動物的觀點而來的。在歷史上，當男生控制起動物的生殖來，動物就成了他們的資產。在我們的文化上，到現在孩子還算是一種資產，這樣一來男生為了維持他們的資產，所以控制起女人的生育。因此，男性必須把女性與孩子們當成資產一樣，他們不可讓女人與孩子們成為有自由意志的「人」。
我們換一個方面來說，很多人說女性主義者的工作是讓男女平等。事實上並非如此。女性主義者不但不是要把機會平均分給男性與女性，這麼大規模的工作反而不是女性主義者的範圍。
女性主義者只是要所有人接受與承認「女人就是人」這個簡單的概念。所謂的人就是有自由意志、有完整身份、有真實存在的情況，而在自己的命運舞台上當演員。所謂的「女性主義者」就是「承認女人就是人」的主義。
This essay is one of my first ever composed in Chinese. (Yay to rockin’ that two-month intensive Chinese course this summer!) Here’s a sentence by sentence translation:
The feminist revolution has not yet happened, but the world badly needs a radical change in thinking. It’s really only a matter of time before the world rejects the inhumane system of patriarchy.
What’s called ‘feminism’ should actually be called ‘humanism’. In our patriarchal culture, what is called ‘human’ actually means ‘man’. Women aren’t really included in this term. So when we in this patriarchy talk about ‘humanism’ it doesn’t really include women. And so feminism can only be called ‘feminism’ and not ‘humanism’.
In general, under the patriarchy, women are considered to be in the same category as animals. It’s like this: the idea of controlling women comes from the original concept of controlling animals. When men first began controlling animals’ reproduction, animals became property. In our culture, even now children are still considered to be a kind of propery, and so in this way, men control women’s reproduction in order to protect their property. In doing so men turn women and children into a form of property, preventing them having the social status of free willed volitional humans.
Let’s look at this in a different way. A lot of people say that the aim of feminism is equality between men and women. Actually this is not the case. The work of feminism is not to give women and men equal opportunities, such a large scale work is outside feminism’s scope. Feminism just wants people to accept and simply recognize that women are human beings: human beings possessing free will and intelligent volition, who have complete identities, who live their own realities, and who are actors on the stage of their own destiny.
When we say ‘feminism’, what we mean is ‘recognizing that women are human beings.’
Discussion Transcript: A daughter’s disease, a mother’s hope
Participants: Maggie, Erica, Angela, Peko, Rachel, Fanny
I’m very interested in this kind of issue about how to treat disorder people. So when I read this story, I also, I’m a woman, so I can feel the mother’s feeling. And I just wonder if I were a mother with a child, like this one, can I keep calm and become so strong to assist her child? I just wonder. So maybe, I also think that our social system in Taiwan, can our system to support this kind of family? Somehow our medicine system, we can discuss this kind of system.
I also think this article is interesting in this topic, “A daughter’s disease, a mother’s hope.” The theme is not in the article, but I think when the daughter have some special disease, and no hope to cure, it’s very hard for a mother, maybe we have so many things to discuss.
Erica, what do you think?
I think to be a mother is hard enough. And to be a single mother is even harder, and to have a sick child is even harder. So just like Fanny said, to put me in her shoes, I think I won’t know how to deal with such a case. Because I don’t have a stable job, and don’t have enough money, and no social support or gvt support. I think I would feel desperate. But the mom is so strong. I admire her. And I think what she did is not just to help her daughter, but she wants to help people who have the same situation, I think she is very brave.
I once saw a movie, the name is Lorenzo’s Oil. I think that mother is braver than this mother—
I think because the character in the movie has more money, and has more knowledge. But this mother is blue collar, and her job is to care for other people’s child. Sorry to interrupt.
—but I think the LO mother is also brave in the same situation.
After I reading this article, I think my interesting part is to show that she is a single mother living in public housing, it means she is poor, she has a daughter with a rare disease. She try her best to live and take care the daughter. But their real problem is the gvt problem. Because the mother cannot get enough social support to get stable work and enough salary to take care of her daughter. So the problem is not enough money and resources to study on this disease, so the mother cannot do anything for this daughter, and especially for the disease. And this is probably a society problem.
Angela, I think in the US, they would take care of this problem, from the—
You really misunderstand the US. In the US, being a single mother is a social crime. Being poor is a crime. No one will help you, least of all the gvt. Because if you dare to be a single mother, it means you’re definitely a Bad Mother. And that is a crime. Because you failed to keep a man, and you’re selfish to keep the child.
There’s this case, a woman, she has two sons, one is 13 and one is 15. The 15 year old got in trouble with the law. So she’s a Bad Mother. She can’t pay the fees for the kid’s jailing, so they put her in jail too. So how’s that going to help her? Then, they let her out of jail to collect her paycheck from her part-time job, which she can’t keep because she’s in jail, but she got the check from the previous month, well they took that, to pay for HER jail costs! So she still can’t pay her son’s jail costs, so they put her back in jail? What the hell? She’s in jail for being poor! Being poor is now a crime! So she’s a Bad Mother, and why? Because her son is in jail, and she’s in jail so she can’t take care of her other son, and because she’s too poor to take care of her children. I tell you, whose fault is this? It’s not the woman’s fault. It’s the fault of the gvt.
In the US, it’s a social crime to be a single mother, because everyone knows it’s the woman’s fault if the kids turn out bad. It’s not the father’s fault for leaving, that’s for sure!
I think in Asia, single women’s situation not so bad.
I think in the world, there’s no place to achieve a really equal position between men and women. It’s hard to reach an equal world, I think.
Do you think in our society people will have more sympathy or support for single mothers, do we have it or not?
I think not.
[everyone shakes head in agreement.]
From the working environment, not—
I think she can get support from friends, but from working environment, or gvt, no.
But what kind of support single mother need from our society? I think we should figure this out.
If you have a baby child, and you have to go out for work, you need someone to help you take care.
But even for working woman, our society doesn’t provide enough child-care system.
It’s expensive.
But recently I hear from my neighbour, she’s a two children, and we discussed this problem for working women. She said there’s some problem for our rules. I ask her why her corporation didn’t build a place for children caring, and she answered that, once their boss wanted to build a place, however, our rules for building the place, it can’t be underground. So no, for a corporation, they have a building, but they only have room for the day-care underground. It’s hard for them to search another place just for children caring. So they decided to do it underground, so our rules don’t allow it.
Your friend must work for a good company.
Yes, Chunghua Dien Shin.
But my question is, why could they only find a place underground for it? You say, they have to take care of costs, and everyone will agree with this, because we all live in a capatilist system, we think capitalist. But did you ever think about that this system, how it is that there are rich people and there are poor people? The poor people donate their labor and time to the rich people. That sounds silly to you, but think about it. Why does someone in Vietnam only work for enough money to pay their bread? If they had a choice? They give their labor and time, and they only get, say a dollar. Because the system makes it hard for them to get paid more. So the money the company saves means they can sell us cheaper things. So when we buy cheaper thing, we are receiving the donation of the laborers. What are they donating? The cost of their housing, the fact that they are sleeping in a dormitory and not a more expensive apartment, the cost of their cheaper food, they are donating their time so we can have cheap plastic things. Of course we also donate our time to more rich people, we are all in the system. It’s just harder to see it clearly in Taiwan right now because we get a lot, too. But we are donating our time.
So, the day care. If the women in the company had a choice, they’d go to a place they could have their children close by, right? But there isn’at anyone. So they donate their own cost of daycare to the company because they have no choice. So you think it’s reasonable that they say, “Well, we tried, but it’s too hard to comkply with the law.” You think, yeah, daycare is not a cost of doing business, so they’re right not to go to the extra expense. But they’re just outsourcing this cost to their employees, who pay it because they have no choice?
I think, our law doesn’t ask our company to build a day care for their employees. So if Chunghua Dien Shin wanted to, then it’s a good thing.
So are they really a good company, just because they ‘tried’?
Yes, it’s true, but they still participate in the system, of poor people subsidising the rich.
Yes, I never though that we subsidise the rich people with our time, and our time with our children. But I never thought they should take care of our children, because we exchange our time for them.
But under capitalist system—
No, but it’s a cost!
But we are just tools, we exchange fairly—
So we are undervalued.
So it’s that actually we’re third class or fourth class, depending on the level in the company. So they don’t exchange fair value. Take it or leave it. I can find someone else. So they won’t complain, and just take it. Some companies, yes.
I can’t agree with you more.
You are the moderator!
But I can’t agree more. So, what do you think?
I think the daughter is not at fault, and there’s many cases in Taiwan like this. I think become a mother will make a woman stronger.
Or weaker.
What do you mean?
She has to spend her time on her child, so she can’t change her situation. She spends all her time taking care of her dependent, so she has no time to make the situation better for herself and others. It’s easier to change things when you have no burden of dependence.
That’s what I want to discuss. She feels guilty because it’s a genetic disease.
So she feels responsible! But most mothers will feel guilty.
Because it’s genetic.
Of course it’s not her fault, but she’s still think it is.
Like autism. The mother will feel really guilty I know that this kind of disease not to related with gene problem. But most mothers will think it’s their fault. So as a mother they discover their children is their responsible for—
It’s women’s nature!
Nature or nurture?
You’re so cynical.
Please believe me that when I ask this kind of question, I am not being cynical. I am really being sincere, I am sincerely asking this question.
Because I think when you say ‘nature’ it’s cynical. You’re saying we can’t change. You’re saying we’re fucked. I say ‘really, there’s nothing to change about this? We’re stuck with this?’ So when I ask, ‘nature or nurture?’, I’m asking you, “Really? We really can’t change this?”
But the women are more responsible than the men.
It’s because we let the men off the hook.
So we women here are all responsible, since we’re the ones all in society.
There are some men in class, when we talk issues like this, they’re—
Uncomfortable?
Not, it’s that women are more than the men.
More what?
No, there are more women than men.
Yes. In traditional thinking, the men be told to earn the money, and they don’t have to clean the room or do some, I don’t know—housework.
So even in the in the western society, really?
But the movies!
Movies are dreams!
Yes, don’t fucking believe the movies!
Right, when you see men and women together in western movie, when I was a child I used to believe this is true.
[general laughter]
So actually I think this article has many place like things are interesting, because we talk about women, men, and so many things, like Chunghua Dien Shin. I never thought we’d talk about Chunghua Dien Shin because of this article.
That’s why I love this class.
But I want to know from you guys, you are so familiar with some kinds of medical science, from your aspect, how do you think about this situation?
Well, the major is, social welfare policy. So I can say the modern situation, what’s problem. I think it’s not her problem. So I think this is our society situation have to change, and we hope to create a more fair system, and gather people together to think about long-term care system. I know the gvt is planning to—
Our gvt?
—yes, our gvt and some NGO people discuss our system, the social insurance system, they hope to use this model to care for the disabled people, like elderly with disability, the children with disability. They hope to combine the medical and social system, but—
—I knew there would be a ‘but’ soon—
—but I think the social system cannot do everything well. If they cannot touch the real people’s needs—
They just use their thinking without real knowledge.
—they just use the productive method.
Productive?
Efficient. They want to take care more people with limited resource.
Get more people.
Yes, but they don’t think to expand the resource on the social care system. So their thinking have to change.
I think I am trained to not trust our gvt. Because I am middle age person, so I will think about my own retirement plan. The gvt said we can give the salary first, then I’ll have the money later, but I don’t think so.
Like in the US, Social Security is a pyramid scheme.
I have to pay 6% of my salary. For my future. But maybe I will die at 50!
So I have to take care of myself in my own way. I have to take care of my mother you know, I won’t trust the gvt.
They will know how to get our taxes, very efficiently. May is the tax season. They know how to collect it very efficiently, even though I just accidentally skipped one item, and just 2000 NT dollars, they called me, after one year!
They called you!
They called and said I skipped one item, and I should pay on time.
Because they have no money.
But it’s so efficiently! Rachel just said that we need to make the social system efficient. The tax system is so efficient!
They collect it efficiently, but they spend it sloppily.
But the home care worker, they are assigned to the elderly, they will count how many hours the elderly people need. If you, so they pay, the service payment for the hours…
You mean…
They only give you 16 hours per person per month. Once you use that up, you have to pay for the worker’s time yourself. So if there’s someone needs 24 hour care, they have to use private contractors. So they are separate from the home care system, because that are only part time care.
I have a question. Does the criteria for 24 hour care, and home care the same?
The doctor will decide, depending on the level of care.
So even if you don’t have time for it, if they decide you don’t have enough need, you have to find a way to get the carer for yourself.
Taipei city’s requirements for a home carer is?
They have to take classes and get certification.
But if the gvt hasn’t got enough personnel, they contract it out to private companies, who then charge the patient directly.
I think if we get old, without enough money, then it’s really terrible!
Yeah, my girlfriend says that if she gets sick when she gets old, she’d rather commit suicide then have to depend on someone else. To which I say, I can care for you! But she says she doesn’t want to depend on anyone, and I just think, but I want to keep her around!
Wow, I want to find someone like you.
Ha, well, I’m taken.
Well—
Besides, you need a boy, and for boys it’s harder to find good ones.
Yes, that made me think an example.
Example for this, or for find person take care of you!
No, but I think if you could find a person that wherever you go, they will go with you, that’s really lucky. I have a friend, she just go to abroad, and her husband go with her.
And give up his job?
Not give up, but—
A leave of absence, or sabbatical?
Not very clear, but I think he’s really nice, I think my friend is very lucky, and they are married.
We often hear that’s someone’s girlfriend go abroad for boyfriend, but we seldom hear the reverse case. Usually the boy asks the girl not to go, to stay, because the centre of the case is the boyfriend.
So why do they have all of the power and none of the responsibility?
It’s a kind of weird tradition, or a weird value. It’s very common in my family, or our society. It’s a habit.
I think it’s a culture.
Culture means we get used to something.
And make it formal.
Yes. Recently I look at the interaction between my father and mother. Sometimes my mother is right, but she says, “But your father thinks so, so let’s go with your father’s idea.” I just wonder why she doesn’t feel confident, and why doesn’t she make him follow her? Because she is right. But because once when they were young, she didn’t follow him, and he got angry. Just one time. And since then she follow him.
She has to ‘try to make the relationship work’. [cutting stomach gesture]
That’s the woman’s responsibility you know, not the man’s [/sarcasm]
They don’t want to break up the family, so they sacrifice themselves. In my family, the men don’t do any housework. I even have to wash my brother’s shoes!
Wow.
Good lord.
But me, I object, I say I am not my brother's mother.
But my mom said I was disobedient, I don’t behave the way the women should behave. So I became the black sheep. So my mother said it’s a pity I wasn’t born a man.
Yeah, I think so too, because men have a better deal!
Because it doesn’t matter they are more foolish or smart, they just have more power than women.
It’s a worldwide culture.
I had the wrong idea, I thought that the western culture—
That’s the advertising. You fell for the advertising.
You know, if you have a flush toilet, you’re rich. If you have your own money, your own house, and no dependents, you’re doing better than 80% of the women in the world. You have a flush toilet and a college education, and no dependents, you’re one of the free-est women in the world.
I’m very interested in this kind of issue about how to treat disorder people. So when I read this story, I also, I’m a woman, so I can feel the mother’s feeling. And I just wonder if I were a mother with a child, like this one, can I keep calm and become so strong to assist her child? I just wonder. So maybe, I also think that our social system in Taiwan, can our system to support this kind of family? Somehow our medicine system, we can discuss this kind of system.
I also think this article is interesting in this topic, “A daughter’s disease, a mother’s hope.” The theme is not in the article, but I think when the daughter have some special disease, and no hope to cure, it’s very hard for a mother, maybe we have so many things to discuss.
Erica, what do you think?
I think to be a mother is hard enough. And to be a single mother is even harder, and to have a sick child is even harder. So just like Fanny said, to put me in her shoes, I think I won’t know how to deal with such a case. Because I don’t have a stable job, and don’t have enough money, and no social support or gvt support. I think I would feel desperate. But the mom is so strong. I admire her. And I think what she did is not just to help her daughter, but she wants to help people who have the same situation, I think she is very brave.
I once saw a movie, the name is Lorenzo’s Oil. I think that mother is braver than this mother—
I think because the character in the movie has more money, and has more knowledge. But this mother is blue collar, and her job is to care for other people’s child. Sorry to interrupt.
—but I think the LO mother is also brave in the same situation.
After I reading this article, I think my interesting part is to show that she is a single mother living in public housing, it means she is poor, she has a daughter with a rare disease. She try her best to live and take care the daughter. But their real problem is the gvt problem. Because the mother cannot get enough social support to get stable work and enough salary to take care of her daughter. So the problem is not enough money and resources to study on this disease, so the mother cannot do anything for this daughter, and especially for the disease. And this is probably a society problem.
Angela, I think in the US, they would take care of this problem, from the—
You really misunderstand the US. In the US, being a single mother is a social crime. Being poor is a crime. No one will help you, least of all the gvt. Because if you dare to be a single mother, it means you’re definitely a Bad Mother. And that is a crime. Because you failed to keep a man, and you’re selfish to keep the child.
There’s this case, a woman, she has two sons, one is 13 and one is 15. The 15 year old got in trouble with the law. So she’s a Bad Mother. She can’t pay the fees for the kid’s jailing, so they put her in jail too. So how’s that going to help her? Then, they let her out of jail to collect her paycheck from her part-time job, which she can’t keep because she’s in jail, but she got the check from the previous month, well they took that, to pay for HER jail costs! So she still can’t pay her son’s jail costs, so they put her back in jail? What the hell? She’s in jail for being poor! Being poor is now a crime! So she’s a Bad Mother, and why? Because her son is in jail, and she’s in jail so she can’t take care of her other son, and because she’s too poor to take care of her children. I tell you, whose fault is this? It’s not the woman’s fault. It’s the fault of the gvt.
In the US, it’s a social crime to be a single mother, because everyone knows it’s the woman’s fault if the kids turn out bad. It’s not the father’s fault for leaving, that’s for sure!
I think in Asia, single women’s situation not so bad.
I think in the world, there’s no place to achieve a really equal position between men and women. It’s hard to reach an equal world, I think.
Do you think in our society people will have more sympathy or support for single mothers, do we have it or not?
I think not.
[everyone shakes head in agreement.]
From the working environment, not—
I think she can get support from friends, but from working environment, or gvt, no.
But what kind of support single mother need from our society? I think we should figure this out.
If you have a baby child, and you have to go out for work, you need someone to help you take care.
But even for working woman, our society doesn’t provide enough child-care system.
It’s expensive.
But recently I hear from my neighbour, she’s a two children, and we discussed this problem for working women. She said there’s some problem for our rules. I ask her why her corporation didn’t build a place for children caring, and she answered that, once their boss wanted to build a place, however, our rules for building the place, it can’t be underground. So no, for a corporation, they have a building, but they only have room for the day-care underground. It’s hard for them to search another place just for children caring. So they decided to do it underground, so our rules don’t allow it.
Your friend must work for a good company.
Yes, Chunghua Dien Shin.
But my question is, why could they only find a place underground for it? You say, they have to take care of costs, and everyone will agree with this, because we all live in a capatilist system, we think capitalist. But did you ever think about that this system, how it is that there are rich people and there are poor people? The poor people donate their labor and time to the rich people. That sounds silly to you, but think about it. Why does someone in Vietnam only work for enough money to pay their bread? If they had a choice? They give their labor and time, and they only get, say a dollar. Because the system makes it hard for them to get paid more. So the money the company saves means they can sell us cheaper things. So when we buy cheaper thing, we are receiving the donation of the laborers. What are they donating? The cost of their housing, the fact that they are sleeping in a dormitory and not a more expensive apartment, the cost of their cheaper food, they are donating their time so we can have cheap plastic things. Of course we also donate our time to more rich people, we are all in the system. It’s just harder to see it clearly in Taiwan right now because we get a lot, too. But we are donating our time.
So, the day care. If the women in the company had a choice, they’d go to a place they could have their children close by, right? But there isn’at anyone. So they donate their own cost of daycare to the company because they have no choice. So you think it’s reasonable that they say, “Well, we tried, but it’s too hard to comkply with the law.” You think, yeah, daycare is not a cost of doing business, so they’re right not to go to the extra expense. But they’re just outsourcing this cost to their employees, who pay it because they have no choice?
I think, our law doesn’t ask our company to build a day care for their employees. So if Chunghua Dien Shin wanted to, then it’s a good thing.
So are they really a good company, just because they ‘tried’?
Yes, it’s true, but they still participate in the system, of poor people subsidising the rich.
Yes, I never though that we subsidise the rich people with our time, and our time with our children. But I never thought they should take care of our children, because we exchange our time for them.
But under capitalist system—
No, but it’s a cost!
But we are just tools, we exchange fairly—
So we are undervalued.
So it’s that actually we’re third class or fourth class, depending on the level in the company. So they don’t exchange fair value. Take it or leave it. I can find someone else. So they won’t complain, and just take it. Some companies, yes.
I can’t agree with you more.
You are the moderator!
But I can’t agree more. So, what do you think?
I think the daughter is not at fault, and there’s many cases in Taiwan like this. I think become a mother will make a woman stronger.
Or weaker.
What do you mean?
She has to spend her time on her child, so she can’t change her situation. She spends all her time taking care of her dependent, so she has no time to make the situation better for herself and others. It’s easier to change things when you have no burden of dependence.
That’s what I want to discuss. She feels guilty because it’s a genetic disease.
So she feels responsible! But most mothers will feel guilty.
Because it’s genetic.
Of course it’s not her fault, but she’s still think it is.
Like autism. The mother will feel really guilty I know that this kind of disease not to related with gene problem. But most mothers will think it’s their fault. So as a mother they discover their children is their responsible for—
It’s women’s nature!
Nature or nurture?
You’re so cynical.
Please believe me that when I ask this kind of question, I am not being cynical. I am really being sincere, I am sincerely asking this question.
Because I think when you say ‘nature’ it’s cynical. You’re saying we can’t change. You’re saying we’re fucked. I say ‘really, there’s nothing to change about this? We’re stuck with this?’ So when I ask, ‘nature or nurture?’, I’m asking you, “Really? We really can’t change this?”
But the women are more responsible than the men.
It’s because we let the men off the hook.
So we women here are all responsible, since we’re the ones all in society.
There are some men in class, when we talk issues like this, they’re—
Uncomfortable?
Not, it’s that women are more than the men.
More what?
No, there are more women than men.
Yes. In traditional thinking, the men be told to earn the money, and they don’t have to clean the room or do some, I don’t know—housework.
So even in the in the western society, really?
But the movies!
Movies are dreams!
Yes, don’t fucking believe the movies!
Right, when you see men and women together in western movie, when I was a child I used to believe this is true.
[general laughter]
So actually I think this article has many place like things are interesting, because we talk about women, men, and so many things, like Chunghua Dien Shin. I never thought we’d talk about Chunghua Dien Shin because of this article.
That’s why I love this class.
But I want to know from you guys, you are so familiar with some kinds of medical science, from your aspect, how do you think about this situation?
Well, the major is, social welfare policy. So I can say the modern situation, what’s problem. I think it’s not her problem. So I think this is our society situation have to change, and we hope to create a more fair system, and gather people together to think about long-term care system. I know the gvt is planning to—
Our gvt?
—yes, our gvt and some NGO people discuss our system, the social insurance system, they hope to use this model to care for the disabled people, like elderly with disability, the children with disability. They hope to combine the medical and social system, but—
—I knew there would be a ‘but’ soon—
—but I think the social system cannot do everything well. If they cannot touch the real people’s needs—
They just use their thinking without real knowledge.
—they just use the productive method.
Productive?
Efficient. They want to take care more people with limited resource.
Get more people.
Yes, but they don’t think to expand the resource on the social care system. So their thinking have to change.
I think I am trained to not trust our gvt. Because I am middle age person, so I will think about my own retirement plan. The gvt said we can give the salary first, then I’ll have the money later, but I don’t think so.
Like in the US, Social Security is a pyramid scheme.
I have to pay 6% of my salary. For my future. But maybe I will die at 50!
So I have to take care of myself in my own way. I have to take care of my mother you know, I won’t trust the gvt.
They will know how to get our taxes, very efficiently. May is the tax season. They know how to collect it very efficiently, even though I just accidentally skipped one item, and just 2000 NT dollars, they called me, after one year!
They called you!
They called and said I skipped one item, and I should pay on time.
Because they have no money.
But it’s so efficiently! Rachel just said that we need to make the social system efficient. The tax system is so efficient!
They collect it efficiently, but they spend it sloppily.
But the home care worker, they are assigned to the elderly, they will count how many hours the elderly people need. If you, so they pay, the service payment for the hours…
You mean…
They only give you 16 hours per person per month. Once you use that up, you have to pay for the worker’s time yourself. So if there’s someone needs 24 hour care, they have to use private contractors. So they are separate from the home care system, because that are only part time care.
I have a question. Does the criteria for 24 hour care, and home care the same?
The doctor will decide, depending on the level of care.
So even if you don’t have time for it, if they decide you don’t have enough need, you have to find a way to get the carer for yourself.
Taipei city’s requirements for a home carer is?
They have to take classes and get certification.
But if the gvt hasn’t got enough personnel, they contract it out to private companies, who then charge the patient directly.
I think if we get old, without enough money, then it’s really terrible!
Yeah, my girlfriend says that if she gets sick when she gets old, she’d rather commit suicide then have to depend on someone else. To which I say, I can care for you! But she says she doesn’t want to depend on anyone, and I just think, but I want to keep her around!
Wow, I want to find someone like you.
Ha, well, I’m taken.
Well—
Besides, you need a boy, and for boys it’s harder to find good ones.
Yes, that made me think an example.
Example for this, or for find person take care of you!
No, but I think if you could find a person that wherever you go, they will go with you, that’s really lucky. I have a friend, she just go to abroad, and her husband go with her.
And give up his job?
Not give up, but—
A leave of absence, or sabbatical?
Not very clear, but I think he’s really nice, I think my friend is very lucky, and they are married.
We often hear that’s someone’s girlfriend go abroad for boyfriend, but we seldom hear the reverse case. Usually the boy asks the girl not to go, to stay, because the centre of the case is the boyfriend.
So why do they have all of the power and none of the responsibility?
It’s a kind of weird tradition, or a weird value. It’s very common in my family, or our society. It’s a habit.
I think it’s a culture.
Culture means we get used to something.
And make it formal.
Yes. Recently I look at the interaction between my father and mother. Sometimes my mother is right, but she says, “But your father thinks so, so let’s go with your father’s idea.” I just wonder why she doesn’t feel confident, and why doesn’t she make him follow her? Because she is right. But because once when they were young, she didn’t follow him, and he got angry. Just one time. And since then she follow him.
She has to ‘try to make the relationship work’. [cutting stomach gesture]
That’s the woman’s responsibility you know, not the man’s [/sarcasm]
They don’t want to break up the family, so they sacrifice themselves. In my family, the men don’t do any housework. I even have to wash my brother’s shoes!
Wow.
Good lord.
But me, I object, I say I am not my brother's mother.
But my mom said I was disobedient, I don’t behave the way the women should behave. So I became the black sheep. So my mother said it’s a pity I wasn’t born a man.
Yeah, I think so too, because men have a better deal!
Because it doesn’t matter they are more foolish or smart, they just have more power than women.
It’s a worldwide culture.
I had the wrong idea, I thought that the western culture—
That’s the advertising. You fell for the advertising.
You know, if you have a flush toilet, you’re rich. If you have your own money, your own house, and no dependents, you’re doing better than 80% of the women in the world. You have a flush toilet and a college education, and no dependents, you’re one of the free-est women in the world.
Segregation
The fact that public bathrooms are segregated to men and women, doesn't that mean that men are not trusted? Women have to be 'protected'. From who? Who else is around?
Society does not trust men to share a private space with women.
Or why else do we go to the trouble of building separate spaces for men and women to take care of such a basic function?
Society does not trust men to share a private space with women.
Or why else do we go to the trouble of building separate spaces for men and women to take care of such a basic function?
Hsinchu Discussion Transcript: Grandmothers, part II
Participants: Robert Wilson Vina Jason Angela
Old women in US, they say the older, the more invisible. You have to work really hard to be noticed.
In my shorthand version of Western history, I think of it like this: In pre-christian times women were the healers and the one who knew how to use the herbs. The Catholic church was uneasy with women having so much power, and so in the 13th century there was a massive campaign to demonize them as witches. And later the church even forbid its priests to marry, and became a male-only organization. And the shadow of the Catholic church, of all the Christian churches, over western culture is long and deep. We’re still completely informed by Christianity, even if we consider ourselves secularized. And Christianity is fundamentally afraid of the power of women, turns us into good girls and whores, and invisible old women. So I brought this up, this topic of old women, because you guys grew up in Chinese culture, it’s completely different from what I know. So I want to know what’s the Chinese viewpoint of old women? I know Chinese culture has a reverence for old people, but in literature it only seems to be in the context of old men. So how about old women?
But the reality will be just like what you said. Like how they treat Lu Shiulien. [VP of Taiwan for 8 years] They don’t appreciate her intelligence, her wit, her contributions. They see an old woman. Most people will say they do cherish an old women, but they won’t get really high respect in society.
You mention sexism, right? But it’s kind of you care about the sex, the male or female.
Maybe.
But what I found, is that if a woman cannot help others, she is useless.
That’s why your mother-in-law is afraid not to help.
Right, in Chinese culture, her value is for what she do for others. We respect old women because what they contribute to others, not herself, the personal achievement. The value system. You will get high achievement as a male, but we are more focused on the contributions of women, not her own achievement. Do you see the difference?
You mention two words, contribution and treatment.
Achievement.
You say contribute to others, most of the females will help their partners,
No I mean, for old men, we all focus on his own acheivement. But for old women, we focus on her contribution.
It’s a stereotype.
So the truth is, we say old women is very important, but if she could not help others, the truth is she is not really important. In most common feelings. Not talking about your mother! We all agree that, we will all say your mother or your wife is very good etc, but OTHER women?
It’s difficult question, because, maybe since I am a man I can’t experience, I can’t maybe know what’s the, you say I can help other people, if I can’t help other people, even though I have achieved some successful business, I can’t get the respect from other people. But you say in Taiwan the status of the women. My opinion, I’m not sure it is true or not. Maybe, just I say, the acheivement for men, maybe we can evaluate the men, he fulfils the dream of a good business is a acheivment, or his goal is to teach some young kids, so that’s his achievement, but he can’t get any help from his wife, so his wife is not helpful for him to achieve his goal, but his wife is a successful woman, she can have another achievement. To that me the achievement and contribution is not related.
What do you think, do you agree with me?
It’s very hard to comment.
Because we are men.
Forget about this, just think about the question.
I really think that what the elderly can do for our society partly depends on our attitude toward them. If put them in the right place, they always contribute.
So is there any difference between elder men and elder women?
I don’t feel any difference for me.
Not your own parents, just the whole society. If we represent Taiwanese people to answer Angela’s question, is there a difference?
From my view, yes.
How about you?
At first I don't think there’s any difference, but after Angela mention this, I think there is. So when we value old men, we value their achievement. But we value old women, if she didn’t contribute to others, then we don’t value her.
She must have done something for her family?
Yeah.
So the problem is, how do we evaluate the success of the women? What is the basis? My opinion is like to evaluate man is different, it needs to have some difference. The difference comes from the because, for what do you want to evaluate, what’s that target you want to devaluate. It’s not men or women, it’s valuation metrics. If you want to evaluate a woman has a successful business, or she is successful in taking care her family, the evaluation factor is not same. So if you say the men and women, you want to evaluate the men and women, you use the same evaluation basis, it’s not fair, they are radically different.
But what is the difference, what is the criteria?
You need to know what factor or criteria you use to evaluate men and women?
So what are the ones you use?
So to evaluate a man, you have to consider that most of his goal is to establish his business or his company. So if you use how much he pay attention to his family, it’s not fair. But if you ignore how much he take to take care of his family, totally, it’s also not fair. You have to balance. How much he take care of his family, and how much he take to establish his business. So for women, you have a different factors.
So that’s why the same situation, like Lu Shiulien, or Shi Mingde, go to prison, but the appreciation received, it’s quite different, even the same reason, but the appreciation is different. [They were both jailed for activities in the democracy movement when Taiwan was still under martial law.]
But you will say the same situation, they are politicians, they are perform the political activity.
But they do the same thing!
But Lu, she is our vice president, and Shu is our party leader, so they are the same.
She was elected to be VP doesn’t mean that she is respected. Just because she’s chosen as the partner. For the common society, for the common feelings, I don’t think she received much appreciation for what she did in the past. I thing others receive more. Maybe it’s personal, we don’t like her personality
[Laugher.] [Because Lu’s personality is often criticized in the press]
Maybe it’s the stereotypes for the old women. I don’t know the answer, I’m just curious. What do you think?
You take the Lu Shiulien example, she is not a, she cannot, you cannot use she as example and see if the whole society respect old women, because she is a politician. So it’s more complex. So we should think about if we met an old woman or old man in the street, do you respect the old man or the old woman, what does their, when you saw them in the street, do you more respect the old man than the old omwan/? I don’t think there’s that much difference. So Lu Shiulien is not a good example.
Okay how about male and female branches of Tsu Ji, they’re treated equal!
But that’s really not easy to see, beaseu you’re bringing religion the mix. Also, the spiritual leader of Tsu Ji is a woman, so this might affect how women are treated in the organization.
So there’s a common stereotype in society, for male and female, it’s complicated, because you want to eliminate stereotype its not easy.
But think, old and ugly man, and old and ugly woman, people will treat them different.
But you can’t say that.
Okay but the American president race, if palin were old and ugly?
Oh, that’s the thing that bothers me the most about the race, it’s that because she’s beautiful, and ‘fuckable’ she’s a better candidate? Wow, because if you can fuck someone, you’ve got power over them, so they’re saying, we’ll only let those we can control in?
But Obama chose an old ugly man, but nobody talk about that!
[Laughter]
Old women in US, they say the older, the more invisible. You have to work really hard to be noticed.
In my shorthand version of Western history, I think of it like this: In pre-christian times women were the healers and the one who knew how to use the herbs. The Catholic church was uneasy with women having so much power, and so in the 13th century there was a massive campaign to demonize them as witches. And later the church even forbid its priests to marry, and became a male-only organization. And the shadow of the Catholic church, of all the Christian churches, over western culture is long and deep. We’re still completely informed by Christianity, even if we consider ourselves secularized. And Christianity is fundamentally afraid of the power of women, turns us into good girls and whores, and invisible old women. So I brought this up, this topic of old women, because you guys grew up in Chinese culture, it’s completely different from what I know. So I want to know what’s the Chinese viewpoint of old women? I know Chinese culture has a reverence for old people, but in literature it only seems to be in the context of old men. So how about old women?
But the reality will be just like what you said. Like how they treat Lu Shiulien. [VP of Taiwan for 8 years] They don’t appreciate her intelligence, her wit, her contributions. They see an old woman. Most people will say they do cherish an old women, but they won’t get really high respect in society.
You mention sexism, right? But it’s kind of you care about the sex, the male or female.
Maybe.
But what I found, is that if a woman cannot help others, she is useless.
That’s why your mother-in-law is afraid not to help.
Right, in Chinese culture, her value is for what she do for others. We respect old women because what they contribute to others, not herself, the personal achievement. The value system. You will get high achievement as a male, but we are more focused on the contributions of women, not her own achievement. Do you see the difference?
You mention two words, contribution and treatment.
Achievement.
You say contribute to others, most of the females will help their partners,
No I mean, for old men, we all focus on his own acheivement. But for old women, we focus on her contribution.
It’s a stereotype.
So the truth is, we say old women is very important, but if she could not help others, the truth is she is not really important. In most common feelings. Not talking about your mother! We all agree that, we will all say your mother or your wife is very good etc, but OTHER women?
It’s difficult question, because, maybe since I am a man I can’t experience, I can’t maybe know what’s the, you say I can help other people, if I can’t help other people, even though I have achieved some successful business, I can’t get the respect from other people. But you say in Taiwan the status of the women. My opinion, I’m not sure it is true or not. Maybe, just I say, the acheivement for men, maybe we can evaluate the men, he fulfils the dream of a good business is a acheivment, or his goal is to teach some young kids, so that’s his achievement, but he can’t get any help from his wife, so his wife is not helpful for him to achieve his goal, but his wife is a successful woman, she can have another achievement. To that me the achievement and contribution is not related.
What do you think, do you agree with me?
It’s very hard to comment.
Because we are men.
Forget about this, just think about the question.
I really think that what the elderly can do for our society partly depends on our attitude toward them. If put them in the right place, they always contribute.
So is there any difference between elder men and elder women?
I don’t feel any difference for me.
Not your own parents, just the whole society. If we represent Taiwanese people to answer Angela’s question, is there a difference?
From my view, yes.
How about you?
At first I don't think there’s any difference, but after Angela mention this, I think there is. So when we value old men, we value their achievement. But we value old women, if she didn’t contribute to others, then we don’t value her.
She must have done something for her family?
Yeah.
So the problem is, how do we evaluate the success of the women? What is the basis? My opinion is like to evaluate man is different, it needs to have some difference. The difference comes from the because, for what do you want to evaluate, what’s that target you want to devaluate. It’s not men or women, it’s valuation metrics. If you want to evaluate a woman has a successful business, or she is successful in taking care her family, the evaluation factor is not same. So if you say the men and women, you want to evaluate the men and women, you use the same evaluation basis, it’s not fair, they are radically different.
But what is the difference, what is the criteria?
You need to know what factor or criteria you use to evaluate men and women?
So what are the ones you use?
So to evaluate a man, you have to consider that most of his goal is to establish his business or his company. So if you use how much he pay attention to his family, it’s not fair. But if you ignore how much he take to take care of his family, totally, it’s also not fair. You have to balance. How much he take care of his family, and how much he take to establish his business. So for women, you have a different factors.
So that’s why the same situation, like Lu Shiulien, or Shi Mingde, go to prison, but the appreciation received, it’s quite different, even the same reason, but the appreciation is different. [They were both jailed for activities in the democracy movement when Taiwan was still under martial law.]
But you will say the same situation, they are politicians, they are perform the political activity.
But they do the same thing!
But Lu, she is our vice president, and Shu is our party leader, so they are the same.
She was elected to be VP doesn’t mean that she is respected. Just because she’s chosen as the partner. For the common society, for the common feelings, I don’t think she received much appreciation for what she did in the past. I thing others receive more. Maybe it’s personal, we don’t like her personality
[Laugher.] [Because Lu’s personality is often criticized in the press]
Maybe it’s the stereotypes for the old women. I don’t know the answer, I’m just curious. What do you think?
You take the Lu Shiulien example, she is not a, she cannot, you cannot use she as example and see if the whole society respect old women, because she is a politician. So it’s more complex. So we should think about if we met an old woman or old man in the street, do you respect the old man or the old woman, what does their, when you saw them in the street, do you more respect the old man than the old omwan/? I don’t think there’s that much difference. So Lu Shiulien is not a good example.
Okay how about male and female branches of Tsu Ji, they’re treated equal!
But that’s really not easy to see, beaseu you’re bringing religion the mix. Also, the spiritual leader of Tsu Ji is a woman, so this might affect how women are treated in the organization.
So there’s a common stereotype in society, for male and female, it’s complicated, because you want to eliminate stereotype its not easy.
But think, old and ugly man, and old and ugly woman, people will treat them different.
But you can’t say that.
Okay but the American president race, if palin were old and ugly?
Oh, that’s the thing that bothers me the most about the race, it’s that because she’s beautiful, and ‘fuckable’ she’s a better candidate? Wow, because if you can fuck someone, you’ve got power over them, so they’re saying, we’ll only let those we can control in?
But Obama chose an old ugly man, but nobody talk about that!
[Laughter]
Hsinchu Discussion Transcript: Grandmothers
Participants: Robert Wilson Vina Jason Angela
I think children are more affected by mother than father, and so the mother was affected by her mother, so that’s why the maternal grandmother has more of an effect.
So the daughter is more close to her own mother than her father, so you imply that?
For example, I live with my mother-in-law. The time the children spend with her is much more than they are with my mother. But the children’s characteristic is more like me, and more like my mother. So its very interesting, when I read the whole article. I think that maybe Asian people are more clever, because it’s all maternal lineage. But I think in modern society, it more tends to be like that. Because I find that many of my friends they live with their mother already. Maybe its because the wife takes the decision making power.
Or you know a lot of strong women.
Because the wife prefer her children to be taken care by her mother than her mother in law.
Why?
Because I can say what you should and shouldn’t do, but I can’t say that to my mother-in-law. Just like those wife prefer to stay their maternal leave in their own home, and not with their mother in law, because they can say what they want to eat or not in their own home, but not in their mother in law’s home!
Before we start, I just want to ask some background information about everyone.
You want to take a survey?
I just want to know do you lived with your mother or mother-in-law?
When I was child?
No, now?
No.
No.
No.
So I’m the only one. Because most of my friends say that I’m a very special girl that can bear to live with her mother-in-law. Because most people don’t.
Yes.
Not really hate, but most people choose not to.
I guess your husband is the local resident in Hsinchu.
No, I am the local resident!
So your husband want to take care his mother, so his mother live with you.
Yes, because I’m quite fine with living with old people. I’m fine, but I find that most people find very serious problems between—
A tension relationship.
There’s tension in the relationship.
—They prefer to live in their own family. If they can choose, they prefer to live with their own mother, but they’d rather live by themselves. For me, I’m very busy, so I really do need to have someone help me with the children, so I’m quite happy, well not very happy, but I very appreciate that I can stay close to my mother and also live with my mother in-law
So is your relationship good?
I’m fine!
Wow, that speaks volumes.
Well what it is—there’s a different…my mother-in-law’s family was very poor
So there was an economic difference
Well it was a values difference.
Oh, so it’s a class difference.
Well, for instance she has to keep warming up the leftovers, over and over.
She has to save every last scrap of food!
Yes. My father was a teacher, so I’m high educational level, but my husband’s family was laborers. So it’s good, because they’re very traditional, but sometime it’s a burden for us, because she’s always sacrificing everything for us, but we don’t need them too. But she’s afraid we’ll kick her out. But my mom is different, she kicked us all out of the house so she could have some quiet.
My mother is different. She moved to Hsinchu with me, but she didn’t’ like it, because she was used to Miaoli, she didn’t want to change her situation. It’s common in Hsinchu, lots of people live here, but their families are not from here. So you asked a question, why we don’t live with our mother-in-law, it’s very common here.
And so your situation?
Actually, my father is still working.
But if they retired will they live with you?
I don’t know.
Why don’t you know?
Well, we’re still thinking about it, it’s a question of living style.
How about you?
Well, my parents said we can move out to form our own family. I live in Jubei and my parents live in Hsinchu. I go to my parents’ every day for lunch.
My brother is like that. They live so close they don’t need to live together.
Sounds like a win-win situation.
Really!
Still have some privacy, yes.
When my children were still young, I still lived with my parents. But now they’re grown, it’s not a good idea. I would say my parents’ viewpoint, especially to the education system, we want to adopt some attitude to teach our children, well we have different aspects. So sometimes living in different places, it’s a good idea. My children then don’t confuse about what the adults might, from his or her parents, and the parents in law. The same situation in this article. They say the mother-in-law, the grandmother have a different style. I would say it’s important for teaching our children.
But I’m in favor of team b, because I appreciate the grandmother factor. Because many of my friends, they're older and their children already grown up. They say they appreciate their parents, because when the child was young, the parents or parents-in-law take the role of mother and father. I notice this too, cuz when I was a child I didn’t live with my grandma because my mom was a housewife. When I came home, my mom was there. But this didn’t happen to my children, because I work in Taipei. But my children still have someone there, when they come home. Some of my friends’ children in Taipei, they have to hang out in fast food restaurants to wait for their parents. Because there’s the after school program, but after that their parents are still at work, and they have to get dinner for themselves. In primary school, they have some nanny, but after highschool, even though they’re not yet adult, they have to take care of themselves. Because they don’t find nanny for them. So they go to after school program by themselves, and feed themselves by themselves. So I do appreciate the traditional mothers’ role, and the traditional fathers’ role, too.
So you prefer team b? What’s the difference between b and e?
I’m not really supporting team e, because I’m not really think that…I appreciate that they play a role in child raising…spiritual. Although they do have a lot more life experience and see a lot more children than young women. But I don’t know that they do really know what to expect from a child, they may still not know what to do.
So team b is saying that old women—
Are wise!
—have the experience to take care of difficult situations. When something happens, they have more experience to take care of the situation.
But I’m not 100 percent supporting b. For example, my daughter uses her left had. So my mother-in-law wants me to change her to use her right hand and accuse me for not changing it, but I don’t agree with it, and then she goes to my husband.
It’s a conventional conflict.
And sometimes she will always say to the children what they do wrong. But I prefer to tell them what they do right. Because the modern parent cherish what their children do well. But in the past Chinese culture, they will not say what is good, but will correct you. It’s all correction. I’m not saying that correction is not right, but in the past culture its too focused on everyone having to fit in to a mold, and you have to correct everyone to the same mold. We are more western now, and more about respecting individualism. Like the grandmother two wolf story. But our grandmothers were all about correcting children’s behaviors, because of past Chinese culture didn’t respect individualism. So it’s not 100 percent wise.
I want to create team f.
Okay! Cool.
So the answer is yes. I would say the grandmother is important, especially for traditional Chinese society. But I would say the old grandparents have lots of experience to take care of children. But the most important is we want to maintain a Chinese culture characteristic. If I respect my mother this is a kind of education sample for my children. It’s a culture, we need to set up a sample for our children to learn how to respect your older people or your relatives. It’s very important but my reason to create the team f, I don’t completely agree the old women is totally their responsibility. The parent like me or my wife have a responsibility to take care of our children. That is why I want to take the team f. The answer is yes, but I have another reason.
Can you state it in one sentence?
The grandmother is important to help the mother/father to take care of grandkids, and it’s a learning example for the grandkids to learn how to respect older people.
But it only has effect when you live with them?
But just I said, to live together or separate is also another kind of experience.
So what ‘s the difference when you take them every weekend to the nursing home?
I would say if my parents have the ability to take care of themselves, I would say they should live in their house. But if they don’t have the ability, and I can’t, then to transfer them to a care center is a good idea. But I have a responsibility to visit the care center very often.
I’m not criticize you. I’m just say if you have a grandmother, it will have an effect to teach children to respect elder. If you don’t you still can teach them with your daily behavior. But what is the effect of the grandmother on the whole family.
I’m saying it’s like you teach your children to respect other people, but if you practice it, and you respect your mother, your child can learn from your practice.
Right. What I do to my parents my children will do to me. I do agree. I’m just curious about your wording. I think that if you live together, why live together, because it’s daily life, if the children get used to living with older people, without any functions, but you will have to bear it in your house, and you still have tot take care of them, this will really teach your children how to take care of those who used to be active. My friend said that when his children were taking care of by his parents, and when he grew up, and choose the school, and he was worried if he was too far away, he worried about his grandparents, because his parents often go abroad on business trip, and he was worried about that the grandparents had no one to care for them. I think this is really good, so the children start to think about others—they didn’t worry about the parents, they can take care of them selves, but they worry about the grandparents! It’s a way that they know they belong to the family. Their responsibility. Because they were fed by them, and then they want to take care of them.
You mention it’s related to different styles of grandmother or grandfather. In our generation, or the kids, they are the traditional style. But maybe our grandkids will face to another style. Like when I’m a grandfather, I will say I won’t be a traditional grandfather. Maybe it’s a different style, so in current Taiwan society, most grandmothers and grandfathers are traditional style but it will change. So if you are grandmother what, do you want to take care your grand kids?
No.
[Laugher]
But you would like to influence them?
Not necessarily. I think that if you are more independent, you not necessarily need to live with your children. But I know that my parents in law are not independent, but I can accept it because they need it. They need to live with you to prove that they are worthy of love, so it’s fine.
So let me re-ask this question. In 30 years, you are a grandmother, do you want to live with your children?
If I need, I hope they will welcome me. But it depends on my choice, you know?
That means that, if I want, I hope they will welcome me. But if I don’t want, it’s my decision. If I do need them, and they refuse to do so, I’ll be sad. But it will depend on what I feel that time.
Because I don’t want my grand daughter in law—normally you will like your grandchildren, but you may not like their spouse!
Hey, I want everyone to answer that question, that is interesting.
I prefer not. I think I can live happily with myself, and maybe with my wife. I have many hobbies, many dreams, many books to read, there’s so much to explore.
But you have to economic independence!
Yes, I’m going to say that! I’m getting to that.
So in Chinese old saying, before you had to save money to keep when you are old, but now you have to save money to protect the children.
But my answer is the same to Robert. My son tells me, when he grows up, he doesn’t want to live with us. And my daughter say she want to live with us.
Normally daughters prefer to live with their parents.
Not every daughter!
[Laughter]
So that’s why I say, I want them to have their own life, and my wife and I will have our own life. We could live together part of the time, but not every day.
But take my mother’s example she didn’t want to live with my brother, but when he bought a new house, she came to see it, and asked, hey? If I was here, where would I live?
So she wanted to know that she could!
Yes.
And my sister in law said, oh, there is not room for you!
Oh shit!
It was stupid, right? There’s room for the children, and a room for the books, but no room for her. So she’s stupid, she still should welcome her. But if this were you, what will you feel, can you accept it?
This kind of violates Chinese thinking, you need to express your welcome, but we have a problem in taiwan, no one has any room!
But I think that young people don’t really think about it. My colleague said the reason she doesn’t want to marry, she doesn’t want, when she comes home, she doesn’t want to find fruit in the fridge! Meaning, she doesn't want to find that the mother-in-law is there with out her permission. Right now, she is only a girlfriend, and the mother-in-law already makes her too involved in the family. But it’s quite strange, that I think it’s fine, because I’m too busy. So if there’s fruit, it’s fine, because I don’t have time, and you want to cook, it’s great! So now for the young people, it’s—
But maybe it’s because you're too busy. If you were less busy you’d have problems with your mother-in-law.
Well, it’s ‘cuz I’m lazy, I don’t mind people taking care of me.
But this is maybe another problem. When we get older, we have to think about what the younger people are thinking. We have to think about their thinking logic, and respect them for that.
I’ll ask in in another way. Do you like the family style in America? Because I think that in 30 years, we’ll be like the culture in America. So our future will be a lot different from our past. So when you look at the US family style, it’s our future. When you say Chinese culture, I think in 30 years, it won’t really be like that. 5 years generation gap, 10 years is really very obvious. But so 30 years, will really be different. So do you think this is good?
It’s not really about good or bad. I agree it will be happen in 20 or 30 years, but the only thing we can do is maintain their relationship with our children, to establish the cause relationship with them. It’s the only thing we can do. We can’t refuse to accept that situation. Think about my example, my son said he wants to …if he has the ability to travel around the world, he doesn’t want to live in Taiwan or Hsinchu. Now he doesn’t even want to be here, he wants to live in Taipei, and he wants to leave and go.
You’re in my parents’ position!
But when my son talks to me, I just encourage him to fulfill his dream. So I tell him how he needs to prepare. You need to earn money, you need to read books, and you need to know things. It’s not easy.
Actually, that’s not true. I just had a plane ticket and 600 dollars US, but I was okay.
But I think balance is best. Too traditional or too modern is not good. But since our society developed, I think our children will develop individualism, so we decided to teach them more Chinese style at home. And also individually. I was educated in Chinese style, but we are trained by society modern individualism so it’s quite balance.
I want to know what Jason thinks.
In 30 years, it depends how my children are thinking. Just like Vina, you need them to take care your children right?
Actually, she said they need her!
My children are actually taken care of by my mother. You know, my parents in law feel like their son has become a lu zue! [= the son is the ‘wife’ in the family, without the prestige of being the main hereditary line]
[laughter]
So, if they need, they can live with me, but in my style, I have my own house, and I live near with my parents, so my parents can see me, if they want, everyday, and they can see their grandson and granddaughter every day if they want. They are all retired now, so usually they go abroad for traveling. When I need them to take care my children, they are happy to take care. So I think it’s the best way for me.
But if your children want to go to foreign country?
That’s okay, it’s their life, I respect their decision.
So it seems their current status you live with your parents is the best model.
We don’t live under the same roof, but very near.
The same building?
Not the same. About 20 minutes drive apart. It’s the perfect model for me.
So you want your children adopt your mode.
Well, for me it’s a good style, because I love my parents.
Do you have children?
Yes,
How old are they?
7 and 5
And who takes care of them?
My wife.
Same as me, my elder is 7 and my second is 5.
And your wife doesn’t work.
Yes, she quit after the second one. She was a teacher before.
Just like me, my wife and I decide that one need to quit a job, and so we discuss, that I need to work! So she quit.
So that’s why you don’t need to live with the grandmother, because all your wife live with your children but I can’t, I need her.
You know, my wife’s salary was higher than me.
Then why didn’t you quit!
Because she said she wanted to take care of HER children. She wanted the experience of it, she thought that it was worth it.
You know, I wondered why always the women quit their job. But in fact, when you actually have the children, you know that the responsibility is on you, because these 10 months, it was already all on you. So you’re already used to have the responsibility. So the woman will decide to sacrifice.
It’s not a sacrifice, it’s a kind of trade off.
As Robert’s case, he is a house husband.
Well not really, you’re the main income bringer, right?
Well partial. But I have the greatest housewife!
For me, that’s why I’m not gonna have children.
For me, I’m a businesswoman, so it’s fine. But if I were a housewife, I can’t imagine what will happen. Because two housewife in the house, that would be terrible, who’s in charge?
That’s why my wife, my mother encourage me to move out.
[Laughter.]
It’s my house or your house! I come to your house, I follow your rules.
One house is owned by one woman!
[agreement and laugher]
So what team do you choose?
Team b and e. It mentioned that old women play an important role. I’d say they could, but not necessarily. But we should value the wisdom that old women bear. Actually for all old people.
I think all people would choose b and e in Taiwan. They would say so, they wouldn’t necessarily show in their behavior, but they think it. Because we are taught.
So who would say a?
I think they would think it, but they wouldn’t say it.
I think that some of my girlfriends would say a, but not in public.
so how about you, A?
ha, no I’ll take c.
trust me, it’s not what you think—that’s a moderator job.
so what are you?
She’s b!
So I’ll choose b,
So how about you!
Oh, uh, I’m typing, I’m not sure.
So what does it mean ‘strongly influence the quality of people’?
It’s like, people raised well are wealthy of spirit, interiorly.
So it’s an economic quality or spiritual quality, its contrasted.
What do you mean? Contrasted, that’s interesting.
Knowledgeable.
You can be rich and stupid, or you can be rich and wise, or poor and wise, or poor and stupid, the point is you can be wealthy in money or wealthy in spirit, they’re not related.
I think children are more affected by mother than father, and so the mother was affected by her mother, so that’s why the maternal grandmother has more of an effect.
So the daughter is more close to her own mother than her father, so you imply that?
For example, I live with my mother-in-law. The time the children spend with her is much more than they are with my mother. But the children’s characteristic is more like me, and more like my mother. So its very interesting, when I read the whole article. I think that maybe Asian people are more clever, because it’s all maternal lineage. But I think in modern society, it more tends to be like that. Because I find that many of my friends they live with their mother already. Maybe its because the wife takes the decision making power.
Or you know a lot of strong women.
Because the wife prefer her children to be taken care by her mother than her mother in law.
Why?
Because I can say what you should and shouldn’t do, but I can’t say that to my mother-in-law. Just like those wife prefer to stay their maternal leave in their own home, and not with their mother in law, because they can say what they want to eat or not in their own home, but not in their mother in law’s home!
Before we start, I just want to ask some background information about everyone.
You want to take a survey?
I just want to know do you lived with your mother or mother-in-law?
When I was child?
No, now?
No.
No.
No.
So I’m the only one. Because most of my friends say that I’m a very special girl that can bear to live with her mother-in-law. Because most people don’t.
Yes.
Not really hate, but most people choose not to.
I guess your husband is the local resident in Hsinchu.
No, I am the local resident!
So your husband want to take care his mother, so his mother live with you.
Yes, because I’m quite fine with living with old people. I’m fine, but I find that most people find very serious problems between—
A tension relationship.
There’s tension in the relationship.
—They prefer to live in their own family. If they can choose, they prefer to live with their own mother, but they’d rather live by themselves. For me, I’m very busy, so I really do need to have someone help me with the children, so I’m quite happy, well not very happy, but I very appreciate that I can stay close to my mother and also live with my mother in-law
So is your relationship good?
I’m fine!
Wow, that speaks volumes.
Well what it is—there’s a different…my mother-in-law’s family was very poor
So there was an economic difference
Well it was a values difference.
Oh, so it’s a class difference.
Well, for instance she has to keep warming up the leftovers, over and over.
She has to save every last scrap of food!
Yes. My father was a teacher, so I’m high educational level, but my husband’s family was laborers. So it’s good, because they’re very traditional, but sometime it’s a burden for us, because she’s always sacrificing everything for us, but we don’t need them too. But she’s afraid we’ll kick her out. But my mom is different, she kicked us all out of the house so she could have some quiet.
My mother is different. She moved to Hsinchu with me, but she didn’t’ like it, because she was used to Miaoli, she didn’t want to change her situation. It’s common in Hsinchu, lots of people live here, but their families are not from here. So you asked a question, why we don’t live with our mother-in-law, it’s very common here.
And so your situation?
Actually, my father is still working.
But if they retired will they live with you?
I don’t know.
Why don’t you know?
Well, we’re still thinking about it, it’s a question of living style.
How about you?
Well, my parents said we can move out to form our own family. I live in Jubei and my parents live in Hsinchu. I go to my parents’ every day for lunch.
My brother is like that. They live so close they don’t need to live together.
Sounds like a win-win situation.
Really!
Still have some privacy, yes.
When my children were still young, I still lived with my parents. But now they’re grown, it’s not a good idea. I would say my parents’ viewpoint, especially to the education system, we want to adopt some attitude to teach our children, well we have different aspects. So sometimes living in different places, it’s a good idea. My children then don’t confuse about what the adults might, from his or her parents, and the parents in law. The same situation in this article. They say the mother-in-law, the grandmother have a different style. I would say it’s important for teaching our children.
But I’m in favor of team b, because I appreciate the grandmother factor. Because many of my friends, they're older and their children already grown up. They say they appreciate their parents, because when the child was young, the parents or parents-in-law take the role of mother and father. I notice this too, cuz when I was a child I didn’t live with my grandma because my mom was a housewife. When I came home, my mom was there. But this didn’t happen to my children, because I work in Taipei. But my children still have someone there, when they come home. Some of my friends’ children in Taipei, they have to hang out in fast food restaurants to wait for their parents. Because there’s the after school program, but after that their parents are still at work, and they have to get dinner for themselves. In primary school, they have some nanny, but after highschool, even though they’re not yet adult, they have to take care of themselves. Because they don’t find nanny for them. So they go to after school program by themselves, and feed themselves by themselves. So I do appreciate the traditional mothers’ role, and the traditional fathers’ role, too.
So you prefer team b? What’s the difference between b and e?
I’m not really supporting team e, because I’m not really think that…I appreciate that they play a role in child raising…spiritual. Although they do have a lot more life experience and see a lot more children than young women. But I don’t know that they do really know what to expect from a child, they may still not know what to do.
So team b is saying that old women—
Are wise!
—have the experience to take care of difficult situations. When something happens, they have more experience to take care of the situation.
But I’m not 100 percent supporting b. For example, my daughter uses her left had. So my mother-in-law wants me to change her to use her right hand and accuse me for not changing it, but I don’t agree with it, and then she goes to my husband.
It’s a conventional conflict.
And sometimes she will always say to the children what they do wrong. But I prefer to tell them what they do right. Because the modern parent cherish what their children do well. But in the past Chinese culture, they will not say what is good, but will correct you. It’s all correction. I’m not saying that correction is not right, but in the past culture its too focused on everyone having to fit in to a mold, and you have to correct everyone to the same mold. We are more western now, and more about respecting individualism. Like the grandmother two wolf story. But our grandmothers were all about correcting children’s behaviors, because of past Chinese culture didn’t respect individualism. So it’s not 100 percent wise.
I want to create team f.
Okay! Cool.
So the answer is yes. I would say the grandmother is important, especially for traditional Chinese society. But I would say the old grandparents have lots of experience to take care of children. But the most important is we want to maintain a Chinese culture characteristic. If I respect my mother this is a kind of education sample for my children. It’s a culture, we need to set up a sample for our children to learn how to respect your older people or your relatives. It’s very important but my reason to create the team f, I don’t completely agree the old women is totally their responsibility. The parent like me or my wife have a responsibility to take care of our children. That is why I want to take the team f. The answer is yes, but I have another reason.
Can you state it in one sentence?
The grandmother is important to help the mother/father to take care of grandkids, and it’s a learning example for the grandkids to learn how to respect older people.
But it only has effect when you live with them?
But just I said, to live together or separate is also another kind of experience.
So what ‘s the difference when you take them every weekend to the nursing home?
I would say if my parents have the ability to take care of themselves, I would say they should live in their house. But if they don’t have the ability, and I can’t, then to transfer them to a care center is a good idea. But I have a responsibility to visit the care center very often.
I’m not criticize you. I’m just say if you have a grandmother, it will have an effect to teach children to respect elder. If you don’t you still can teach them with your daily behavior. But what is the effect of the grandmother on the whole family.
I’m saying it’s like you teach your children to respect other people, but if you practice it, and you respect your mother, your child can learn from your practice.
Right. What I do to my parents my children will do to me. I do agree. I’m just curious about your wording. I think that if you live together, why live together, because it’s daily life, if the children get used to living with older people, without any functions, but you will have to bear it in your house, and you still have tot take care of them, this will really teach your children how to take care of those who used to be active. My friend said that when his children were taking care of by his parents, and when he grew up, and choose the school, and he was worried if he was too far away, he worried about his grandparents, because his parents often go abroad on business trip, and he was worried about that the grandparents had no one to care for them. I think this is really good, so the children start to think about others—they didn’t worry about the parents, they can take care of them selves, but they worry about the grandparents! It’s a way that they know they belong to the family. Their responsibility. Because they were fed by them, and then they want to take care of them.
You mention it’s related to different styles of grandmother or grandfather. In our generation, or the kids, they are the traditional style. But maybe our grandkids will face to another style. Like when I’m a grandfather, I will say I won’t be a traditional grandfather. Maybe it’s a different style, so in current Taiwan society, most grandmothers and grandfathers are traditional style but it will change. So if you are grandmother what, do you want to take care your grand kids?
No.
[Laugher]
But you would like to influence them?
Not necessarily. I think that if you are more independent, you not necessarily need to live with your children. But I know that my parents in law are not independent, but I can accept it because they need it. They need to live with you to prove that they are worthy of love, so it’s fine.
So let me re-ask this question. In 30 years, you are a grandmother, do you want to live with your children?
If I need, I hope they will welcome me. But it depends on my choice, you know?
That means that, if I want, I hope they will welcome me. But if I don’t want, it’s my decision. If I do need them, and they refuse to do so, I’ll be sad. But it will depend on what I feel that time.
Because I don’t want my grand daughter in law—normally you will like your grandchildren, but you may not like their spouse!
Hey, I want everyone to answer that question, that is interesting.
I prefer not. I think I can live happily with myself, and maybe with my wife. I have many hobbies, many dreams, many books to read, there’s so much to explore.
But you have to economic independence!
Yes, I’m going to say that! I’m getting to that.
So in Chinese old saying, before you had to save money to keep when you are old, but now you have to save money to protect the children.
But my answer is the same to Robert. My son tells me, when he grows up, he doesn’t want to live with us. And my daughter say she want to live with us.
Normally daughters prefer to live with their parents.
Not every daughter!
[Laughter]
So that’s why I say, I want them to have their own life, and my wife and I will have our own life. We could live together part of the time, but not every day.
But take my mother’s example she didn’t want to live with my brother, but when he bought a new house, she came to see it, and asked, hey? If I was here, where would I live?
So she wanted to know that she could!
Yes.
And my sister in law said, oh, there is not room for you!
Oh shit!
It was stupid, right? There’s room for the children, and a room for the books, but no room for her. So she’s stupid, she still should welcome her. But if this were you, what will you feel, can you accept it?
This kind of violates Chinese thinking, you need to express your welcome, but we have a problem in taiwan, no one has any room!
But I think that young people don’t really think about it. My colleague said the reason she doesn’t want to marry, she doesn’t want, when she comes home, she doesn’t want to find fruit in the fridge! Meaning, she doesn't want to find that the mother-in-law is there with out her permission. Right now, she is only a girlfriend, and the mother-in-law already makes her too involved in the family. But it’s quite strange, that I think it’s fine, because I’m too busy. So if there’s fruit, it’s fine, because I don’t have time, and you want to cook, it’s great! So now for the young people, it’s—
But maybe it’s because you're too busy. If you were less busy you’d have problems with your mother-in-law.
Well, it’s ‘cuz I’m lazy, I don’t mind people taking care of me.
But this is maybe another problem. When we get older, we have to think about what the younger people are thinking. We have to think about their thinking logic, and respect them for that.
I’ll ask in in another way. Do you like the family style in America? Because I think that in 30 years, we’ll be like the culture in America. So our future will be a lot different from our past. So when you look at the US family style, it’s our future. When you say Chinese culture, I think in 30 years, it won’t really be like that. 5 years generation gap, 10 years is really very obvious. But so 30 years, will really be different. So do you think this is good?
It’s not really about good or bad. I agree it will be happen in 20 or 30 years, but the only thing we can do is maintain their relationship with our children, to establish the cause relationship with them. It’s the only thing we can do. We can’t refuse to accept that situation. Think about my example, my son said he wants to …if he has the ability to travel around the world, he doesn’t want to live in Taiwan or Hsinchu. Now he doesn’t even want to be here, he wants to live in Taipei, and he wants to leave and go.
You’re in my parents’ position!
But when my son talks to me, I just encourage him to fulfill his dream. So I tell him how he needs to prepare. You need to earn money, you need to read books, and you need to know things. It’s not easy.
Actually, that’s not true. I just had a plane ticket and 600 dollars US, but I was okay.
But I think balance is best. Too traditional or too modern is not good. But since our society developed, I think our children will develop individualism, so we decided to teach them more Chinese style at home. And also individually. I was educated in Chinese style, but we are trained by society modern individualism so it’s quite balance.
I want to know what Jason thinks.
In 30 years, it depends how my children are thinking. Just like Vina, you need them to take care your children right?
Actually, she said they need her!
My children are actually taken care of by my mother. You know, my parents in law feel like their son has become a lu zue! [= the son is the ‘wife’ in the family, without the prestige of being the main hereditary line]
[laughter]
So, if they need, they can live with me, but in my style, I have my own house, and I live near with my parents, so my parents can see me, if they want, everyday, and they can see their grandson and granddaughter every day if they want. They are all retired now, so usually they go abroad for traveling. When I need them to take care my children, they are happy to take care. So I think it’s the best way for me.
But if your children want to go to foreign country?
That’s okay, it’s their life, I respect their decision.
So it seems their current status you live with your parents is the best model.
We don’t live under the same roof, but very near.
The same building?
Not the same. About 20 minutes drive apart. It’s the perfect model for me.
So you want your children adopt your mode.
Well, for me it’s a good style, because I love my parents.
Do you have children?
Yes,
How old are they?
7 and 5
And who takes care of them?
My wife.
Same as me, my elder is 7 and my second is 5.
And your wife doesn’t work.
Yes, she quit after the second one. She was a teacher before.
Just like me, my wife and I decide that one need to quit a job, and so we discuss, that I need to work! So she quit.
So that’s why you don’t need to live with the grandmother, because all your wife live with your children but I can’t, I need her.
You know, my wife’s salary was higher than me.
Then why didn’t you quit!
Because she said she wanted to take care of HER children. She wanted the experience of it, she thought that it was worth it.
You know, I wondered why always the women quit their job. But in fact, when you actually have the children, you know that the responsibility is on you, because these 10 months, it was already all on you. So you’re already used to have the responsibility. So the woman will decide to sacrifice.
It’s not a sacrifice, it’s a kind of trade off.
As Robert’s case, he is a house husband.
Well not really, you’re the main income bringer, right?
Well partial. But I have the greatest housewife!
For me, that’s why I’m not gonna have children.
For me, I’m a businesswoman, so it’s fine. But if I were a housewife, I can’t imagine what will happen. Because two housewife in the house, that would be terrible, who’s in charge?
That’s why my wife, my mother encourage me to move out.
[Laughter.]
It’s my house or your house! I come to your house, I follow your rules.
One house is owned by one woman!
[agreement and laugher]
So what team do you choose?
Team b and e. It mentioned that old women play an important role. I’d say they could, but not necessarily. But we should value the wisdom that old women bear. Actually for all old people.
I think all people would choose b and e in Taiwan. They would say so, they wouldn’t necessarily show in their behavior, but they think it. Because we are taught.
So who would say a?
I think they would think it, but they wouldn’t say it.
I think that some of my girlfriends would say a, but not in public.
so how about you, A?
ha, no I’ll take c.
trust me, it’s not what you think—that’s a moderator job.
so what are you?
She’s b!
So I’ll choose b,
So how about you!
Oh, uh, I’m typing, I’m not sure.
So what does it mean ‘strongly influence the quality of people’?
It’s like, people raised well are wealthy of spirit, interiorly.
So it’s an economic quality or spiritual quality, its contrasted.
What do you mean? Contrasted, that’s interesting.
Knowledgeable.
You can be rich and stupid, or you can be rich and wise, or poor and wise, or poor and stupid, the point is you can be wealthy in money or wealthy in spirit, they’re not related.
Is Feminism Important?
Discussion Question:
Article:
Shakesville: Because You Have A Belly Button
Extra Fun:
Teh Portly Dyke
Is feminism important?
Article:
Shakesville: Because You Have A Belly Button
Extra Fun:
Teh Portly Dyke
Hsinchu Discussion Transcript: Feminism
Participants: Kevin, Robert, Wilson, Maurice, Angela
Its interesting how the human being society, why it’s always patriarchal. You know ants, they’re not patriarchal. That’s because the female ant has the right to, it’s the females can choose to have male or female offspring.
Yes, it depends what they feed the larvae.
Also bees. So only humans are patriarchal.
Not every country. I read the news, some places, the woman is more important in the family. Like in Vietnam, the women are very powerful there.
So we have a female gvt in Vietnam?
…
Yes, okay, but they have power at the home.
So that’s why of all the female trafficking in Asia, there’s no Vietnamese wives. I mean, none of the women that are trafficked come from Vietnam, yeah?
…
So our society is controlled by men, and most of the power is controlled by men. It’s interesting.
Maybe it’s the physical strength.
Oh, let’s not go there, I’m really bored with that argument.
I’m saying that men can lift heavy loads.
Okay, right, if we’re going to go there, let’s get this out of the way quickly. Men can sometimes life heavier loads than women, but women have far more endurance and tolerance for pain than men, meaning they can work harder and longer. So, talking about who is stronger? Sort of not the point, becase if you can lift heavy loads, well, I can probably work much longer than you, so how are men stronger, physically? Okay? So lets talk about what men and women care about, the power relations. I think when people say ‘men are stronger’ they’re saying ‘this justifies that men control things.”
Evolutionarily, men protect women, the men have more power to protect their family, and the female can promote more time to take care their new generation, their children. So it’s kind of like an evolutionary result. So men control most of the power. So the background for the female to support the men. But just for the society of ants, it’s different because their population is very large, so maybe it’s not dangerous for the population, so the female can control all things. You know the ratio for ants to people is like 10 to one.
Yes, if you add up the total mass of ants on this planet, it’s ten times the mass of humans. Talking about volume and weight of the bodies, not number of bodies. Okay, you mentioned matriarchal earlier, let me say something about that here. I heard that there was a matriarchal tribe in Taiwan, the women owned the houses, and the men lived with whoever they were lovers with at the time. If the woman got pissed off at the man, she could kick him out of the house, and he had no right to return. And brothers lived with their sisters and helped raise their sister’s kids, if they had no lover to live with at the time. So what if, if this story were true, maybe the men got tired of not having their own house, of someone else having power over where they could live. And I’ve been speculating that perhaps, where the change happened, why the men are in control now, is that they redefined the meaning of the home. They were like, yeah, you women, you still control the home, no problem, but we’re going to build this bigger society structure, and it’ll be more powerful than the home, so even though women are still in the home, the home has been devalued as not as important as the public sphere of commerce and gvt.
So this question, is feminism important, is it a difficult or easy question?
But I think that feminism, this question, it depends on how we live in this society. It’s just, why today we have such a situation that men usually have a more resources, more powerful than women, is it because that in our culture period, and women, men may have more strength to, how to say that! Er, to feed, like hunting and farming, like that, I think it’s the main reason why men could dominate society.
Okay, let’s address the ‘men brought home the meat, so they were more important’ myth. Actually, what they’ve studied about the diets of previous cultures and primitive cultures, they found that in fact their diet was composed very little of meat. Mostly it was grains, fruits, what was gathered, or later, what was grown. But okay, so why does hunting take hold of the imagination? A well-known author, Ursual K. LeGuin, put it very well when she said that, basically, hunting is a better story. Like: “…and then, the beast roared, and twisted, and Oleg nearly lost a leg, but then Biff threw his spear really hard…” But, she’s like, how do you make a story about gathering? “…and then I found another great clump of really beautiful nuts, and then Trudi found another really nice tree, then we walked and chatted for awhile, then we got to the other nut grove…” You know?
People want to hear interesting things, so if you’re a good storyteller, people will listen to you. So having great stories can be a springboard to power.
Yeah, everyone likes a story. On the TV, it says, everyone needs a drink of milk, so you’ll be more intelligent. So you’re forced to believe that, it’s quite interesting. So if you can tell a good story and make them to believe it, then you are successful.
And the Greeks! They wrote some great stories, but they were these two-bit city states. The Persians, at the same time, were this huge empire, but they weren’t all that interested in writing. And so now we hear how powerful the Greeks are, and how the Persians are pigs, because of the famous Greek stories, but we never hear how wonderful Persian society and culture and ideas were, because they never wrote anything down. Or how about Chinese history? 1000 years of ‘Tien Shia’. [lit. ‘all under heaven’ = all must be united under the heavenly emperor’] How do you combat that, if you’re an island with a mere 300 years of colonized history? How do you talk about Taiwanese indepedence when you’ve got 1000 years of ‘Tien Shia’ to go against.
…
Feminism is important, because of one word, it talks of equal for women. But how do you say equal? Can you really say men and women are the same?
Okay, this is a problem going back to the writing of the Declaration of Independence. When it says ‘all men are created equal’, it sounds like ‘all men are born with the same abilities’. What they were actually saying is: ‘all men are given the same rights, to live, to be free, and to do whatever makes them happy’. So we’re not talking about ability, who’s stronger or so on.
So the Declaration was talking about men. Feminism is talking about everybody: Men, Women, all humans. It’s the idea that every human should be given equal rights, to live, to be free, to do what makes them happy.
So if our law have the regulation to protect or guarantee the equal right for men and women, and then I would say the men and the women, in nature, they are not the same, they have different responsibility.
Responsibility?
If men are stronger than women, generally, they can have responsibility to protect women. And women have ability to generate the new generation, so it is our responsibility to take care our children. So I would say it’s a kind of evolution, it’s our human being living.
Our way of life?
So I would say feminism is not important, its kind of our society rule. So I would say it’s not equal to give the better treatment to female. Our society can change, but it’s not important, but it’s a kind of natural rule, if our society have the right to change the situation, it would change.
The right? The ability, the desire?
The desire. Like the west has a different attitude towards women. Or say, African women. I would say Africa has a very tough situation for women, because they have a tough living environment, and the women have the most responsibility for children, and search for the food for their children. And the men’s job is just for fighting and maybe to protect their family. So its a kind of cultural evolution.
I have another point of view. I think it’s a kind of a, it depends on what kind of a profit you want to grab. Though it’s a kind of lifestyle about how you would like to live in, in today’s, let me say, in Taiwan society, there’s no need to for men to protect women, for technology, with such greater technology development, I don’t think that women need men to protect women. Women can protect themselves with the…the modern device and equipment.
Smith and Wesson!
Yeah, maybe weapon. It depends on what kind of a life you want to live it. I don’t think it’s a kind of responsibly or not, it the life you choose. Men could also decide to educate their children by themselves. It’s not a duty for women. It’s not anymore the duty for women. So that’s my point of view.
But according to your point, for Taiwanese, we don’t need to marriage, because the Taiwanese girl doesn’t need Taiwanese boy to protect them.
But marriage is not just for who protects who! It’s a kind of agreement.
Contract?
Contract. It—
So we have a contract to have a baby.
—it depends on both of you, the wife and the husband, it depends on their consensus. So the role of woman or man is, they can discuss themselves to each other. I still think that modern society, we don’t have to think in the traditional way. Yeah. So I think the author propose such a question is to remind us we can think things in another way, in another side, that’s my point of view.
Wait, I’m sorry, I want to go back to what Wilson said. Forgive me if this is too straightforward, but it sounds to me maybe like you’re saying: “If they don’t need us, why would they want us?” Is that what you were saying?
Well kind of, so why to form a marriage, just to generate a new baby? But it’s not true for our society, the family have a function of our society.
Right.
Yes.
Well, so, what is the function of the society?
We need to have a harmonious society, we need to have a cooperative relationship. And the father and mother have a responsibility, and also the children. So it’s a kind of human being evolution result. I would say evolution is a mystery word. Because we don’t know why we have a male and female, why people don’t have a binary gender—why every creature has a binary gender.
Well, actually, there are a few species who reproduce parthogenically, for instance there’s a kind of lizard, there’s no males, not at all. The eggs are produced in the females, and somehow the genetics works. It turns out, actually, that humans could produce parthgenically, we have all of the codes in the eggs, but a certain section of the genes is switched ‘off’, but they’re switched ‘on’ in the sperm. So if a sperm fertilizes an egg, it goes all the way to making a complete baby, but if the egg does it by itself, then the baby goes wrong, doesn’t fully form, and then aborts. So there are cases where they’ve found a half-formed baby, or at least discrete genetic material, like hair or teeth, and they’ve got a different dna, in a woman’s ovary. But yes, in fact the majority of the species on this planet have male and female. And that's really interesting, I do wonder why evolution brought us to this point. I mean, from an evolutionary perspective, why do you really need men?
Okay, wait, you were talking about male privilege, what is the main problem for women?
Constrainment of choices!
Okay, don’t say that. I don’t see how that’s true.
Well, you’re male! You have the privilege to not see it!
…
I can say, from my marriage, I can say that asking this question, asking is equality important? In marriage, I have learned so much, it’s about mutual respect. I can say nothing is more important than that.
Of course, in marriage you need to respect your wife’s thinking. If she thinks you’re not treating her with a better way, you need to treat her with a better way. You need to respect her thought and treat her better. I say respect is based on what you believe and what you think.
Um, because I’m a homeschooling father, so I find out if I’m not supporting enough, or I’m ignorant sometimes, I’ll see that our family functions less than it should be. So supporting your wife is supporting your family, if you want our family to prosper.
You have the responsibility to take care of your family. It’s not only your wife’s responsibility. You have the right and the duty to teach your children, maybe to grow up to stand beside your children while they are growing up.
Well, I usually see our family as a unit, so I think every family member has their contribution, and, um, I would say that family is the learning center of our first socialization, and I um, hadn’t thought
about that much before I got married. I realized, when I was a father, in addition to taking care of, being a financial support, I also have to educate my children. And sometimes I would ignore my wife’s emotion, and not give enough support to what she’s doing, and I would see that the happiness of the family would not be good. Maybe my viewpoint is very partial, but it’s what I feel.
Something comes up in my brain. I think, cuz the author mention that boy are growing up knowing that one day they will have to function. Today we sit there and discuss the many aspect of this question, it’s because we are well educated. I think is feminism important implies that good education is important, and its because, uh, we are well educated, we are more open minded, and will have a positive manner towards the question or on what you have seen on a lot of events.
Your experience.
Yes! And so the core concept of feminism, I think it will eventually be how we educate our new education, it depends on how you educate your children, and how do they know that we cannot just thinking about yourself. We should think about…it’s something like that we should help others if we have enough ability. There’s a Taiwanese saying, it’s something like, the happiest thing is to help other people.
It’s that, why we need feminism is it comes from there are some inequality between men and women. But it’s just not what I thought, it is not important to just find, to observe sorts of situations we know or we observe, the most important is your manner toward this problem, and a good attitude comes from good education.
It’s like, our education is teach us to believe our society is formed by male and female. So the form of the marriage is to generate a new generation, for our children. So if, the marriage is not for children, for example, two young people they got married, but they don’t want to have children, it’s nothing, they don’t care about their equal status, because the nature of unequal, the factor does not exist, because they don’t want to have baby. They’re only married to live together. I don’t care you are male or female, I just want to live with you. So if this is the situation, then nothing unequal You can declare your right for you living, or anything. I would say, it’s another interesting point.
It really is.
It’s just like lesbian or gay for our society, homosexual is unusual. But in western society, it’s normal. It’s a kind of cultural acceptance. So it’s question of what you want to support. So the most important thing is, we define our marriage is for, you need to have your own children, so you define role of father, and role of mother, so family is for children. So it’s a kind of education system, to give us belief.
Sorry, what I mean for education, is not normal education. Its not just you have to go to school and listen what teacher say to you. My meaning for education, is for our school system, we have teach you to believe something, maybe is for knowledge, maybe is for living style, It’s a process for you learning something. It’s not necessary for education system, just for your learning process.
Maybe you can put that in another way, that you shift your focus to further self development for each individual, instead of devotion to your family, maybe that would be more clear. So everyone deserves to have his or her potential fully developed.
Well, let me say another way. We have equal right to learn, to know our potential, and to develop our own life, and meanwhile we need to communicate and to coordinate, to compromise, to have same conscious then finally we need to cooperate with each other. So that our human society could function well, and could keep going, and will not misfunction at all, and be destroyed.
This conversation is intensely interesting. How do you define family? In my experience, family was very strong when I was a child, then when the children grew up and left home, it’s like the family was dismantled, it was a formal shell, not a living organism. Before modern society, family was your social security, children were how you were cared for in old age. But when families dismantle, your social security is also dismantled. But in modern society, actually, you can create family, from unrelated people. People are choosing to live together in groups, because more people living together is much easier than just dad mom 2.2 children. It’s called ‘intentional community’. You can Google that and learn some interesting things about creating a family not from blood relatives.
I also came from a dismantled family. In my growing up, in my childhood, my family seldom got support from our, from our…my main point is that I come from dismantled family, I don’t got any support from my cousin, my relatives, but I still can live well by myself. That’s why I don’t think family support would mean anything in my life. I think this can be, just be an extra option, if you have a good family network, maybe you can live more well.
I think this is true. A good family network of any sort, allows you to live more well.
It’s a human mystery. There’s some combination, some component that lives in our blood. It’s not removable, even though we don’t live together, we have a relationship, contact.
Who is family???
Good question!
Its interesting how the human being society, why it’s always patriarchal. You know ants, they’re not patriarchal. That’s because the female ant has the right to, it’s the females can choose to have male or female offspring.
Yes, it depends what they feed the larvae.
Also bees. So only humans are patriarchal.
Not every country. I read the news, some places, the woman is more important in the family. Like in Vietnam, the women are very powerful there.
So we have a female gvt in Vietnam?
…
Yes, okay, but they have power at the home.
So that’s why of all the female trafficking in Asia, there’s no Vietnamese wives. I mean, none of the women that are trafficked come from Vietnam, yeah?
…
So our society is controlled by men, and most of the power is controlled by men. It’s interesting.
Maybe it’s the physical strength.
Oh, let’s not go there, I’m really bored with that argument.
I’m saying that men can lift heavy loads.
Okay, right, if we’re going to go there, let’s get this out of the way quickly. Men can sometimes life heavier loads than women, but women have far more endurance and tolerance for pain than men, meaning they can work harder and longer. So, talking about who is stronger? Sort of not the point, becase if you can lift heavy loads, well, I can probably work much longer than you, so how are men stronger, physically? Okay? So lets talk about what men and women care about, the power relations. I think when people say ‘men are stronger’ they’re saying ‘this justifies that men control things.”
Evolutionarily, men protect women, the men have more power to protect their family, and the female can promote more time to take care their new generation, their children. So it’s kind of like an evolutionary result. So men control most of the power. So the background for the female to support the men. But just for the society of ants, it’s different because their population is very large, so maybe it’s not dangerous for the population, so the female can control all things. You know the ratio for ants to people is like 10 to one.
Yes, if you add up the total mass of ants on this planet, it’s ten times the mass of humans. Talking about volume and weight of the bodies, not number of bodies. Okay, you mentioned matriarchal earlier, let me say something about that here. I heard that there was a matriarchal tribe in Taiwan, the women owned the houses, and the men lived with whoever they were lovers with at the time. If the woman got pissed off at the man, she could kick him out of the house, and he had no right to return. And brothers lived with their sisters and helped raise their sister’s kids, if they had no lover to live with at the time. So what if, if this story were true, maybe the men got tired of not having their own house, of someone else having power over where they could live. And I’ve been speculating that perhaps, where the change happened, why the men are in control now, is that they redefined the meaning of the home. They were like, yeah, you women, you still control the home, no problem, but we’re going to build this bigger society structure, and it’ll be more powerful than the home, so even though women are still in the home, the home has been devalued as not as important as the public sphere of commerce and gvt.
So this question, is feminism important, is it a difficult or easy question?
But I think that feminism, this question, it depends on how we live in this society. It’s just, why today we have such a situation that men usually have a more resources, more powerful than women, is it because that in our culture period, and women, men may have more strength to, how to say that! Er, to feed, like hunting and farming, like that, I think it’s the main reason why men could dominate society.
Okay, let’s address the ‘men brought home the meat, so they were more important’ myth. Actually, what they’ve studied about the diets of previous cultures and primitive cultures, they found that in fact their diet was composed very little of meat. Mostly it was grains, fruits, what was gathered, or later, what was grown. But okay, so why does hunting take hold of the imagination? A well-known author, Ursual K. LeGuin, put it very well when she said that, basically, hunting is a better story. Like: “…and then, the beast roared, and twisted, and Oleg nearly lost a leg, but then Biff threw his spear really hard…” But, she’s like, how do you make a story about gathering? “…and then I found another great clump of really beautiful nuts, and then Trudi found another really nice tree, then we walked and chatted for awhile, then we got to the other nut grove…” You know?
People want to hear interesting things, so if you’re a good storyteller, people will listen to you. So having great stories can be a springboard to power.
Yeah, everyone likes a story. On the TV, it says, everyone needs a drink of milk, so you’ll be more intelligent. So you’re forced to believe that, it’s quite interesting. So if you can tell a good story and make them to believe it, then you are successful.
And the Greeks! They wrote some great stories, but they were these two-bit city states. The Persians, at the same time, were this huge empire, but they weren’t all that interested in writing. And so now we hear how powerful the Greeks are, and how the Persians are pigs, because of the famous Greek stories, but we never hear how wonderful Persian society and culture and ideas were, because they never wrote anything down. Or how about Chinese history? 1000 years of ‘Tien Shia’. [lit. ‘all under heaven’ = all must be united under the heavenly emperor’] How do you combat that, if you’re an island with a mere 300 years of colonized history? How do you talk about Taiwanese indepedence when you’ve got 1000 years of ‘Tien Shia’ to go against.
…
Feminism is important, because of one word, it talks of equal for women. But how do you say equal? Can you really say men and women are the same?
Okay, this is a problem going back to the writing of the Declaration of Independence. When it says ‘all men are created equal’, it sounds like ‘all men are born with the same abilities’. What they were actually saying is: ‘all men are given the same rights, to live, to be free, and to do whatever makes them happy’. So we’re not talking about ability, who’s stronger or so on.
So the Declaration was talking about men. Feminism is talking about everybody: Men, Women, all humans. It’s the idea that every human should be given equal rights, to live, to be free, to do what makes them happy.
So if our law have the regulation to protect or guarantee the equal right for men and women, and then I would say the men and the women, in nature, they are not the same, they have different responsibility.
Responsibility?
If men are stronger than women, generally, they can have responsibility to protect women. And women have ability to generate the new generation, so it is our responsibility to take care our children. So I would say it’s a kind of evolution, it’s our human being living.
Our way of life?
So I would say feminism is not important, its kind of our society rule. So I would say it’s not equal to give the better treatment to female. Our society can change, but it’s not important, but it’s a kind of natural rule, if our society have the right to change the situation, it would change.
The right? The ability, the desire?
The desire. Like the west has a different attitude towards women. Or say, African women. I would say Africa has a very tough situation for women, because they have a tough living environment, and the women have the most responsibility for children, and search for the food for their children. And the men’s job is just for fighting and maybe to protect their family. So its a kind of cultural evolution.
I have another point of view. I think it’s a kind of a, it depends on what kind of a profit you want to grab. Though it’s a kind of lifestyle about how you would like to live in, in today’s, let me say, in Taiwan society, there’s no need to for men to protect women, for technology, with such greater technology development, I don’t think that women need men to protect women. Women can protect themselves with the…the modern device and equipment.
Smith and Wesson!
Yeah, maybe weapon. It depends on what kind of a life you want to live it. I don’t think it’s a kind of responsibly or not, it the life you choose. Men could also decide to educate their children by themselves. It’s not a duty for women. It’s not anymore the duty for women. So that’s my point of view.
But according to your point, for Taiwanese, we don’t need to marriage, because the Taiwanese girl doesn’t need Taiwanese boy to protect them.
But marriage is not just for who protects who! It’s a kind of agreement.
Contract?
Contract. It—
So we have a contract to have a baby.
—it depends on both of you, the wife and the husband, it depends on their consensus. So the role of woman or man is, they can discuss themselves to each other. I still think that modern society, we don’t have to think in the traditional way. Yeah. So I think the author propose such a question is to remind us we can think things in another way, in another side, that’s my point of view.
Wait, I’m sorry, I want to go back to what Wilson said. Forgive me if this is too straightforward, but it sounds to me maybe like you’re saying: “If they don’t need us, why would they want us?” Is that what you were saying?
Well kind of, so why to form a marriage, just to generate a new baby? But it’s not true for our society, the family have a function of our society.
Right.
Yes.
Well, so, what is the function of the society?
We need to have a harmonious society, we need to have a cooperative relationship. And the father and mother have a responsibility, and also the children. So it’s a kind of human being evolution result. I would say evolution is a mystery word. Because we don’t know why we have a male and female, why people don’t have a binary gender—why every creature has a binary gender.
Well, actually, there are a few species who reproduce parthogenically, for instance there’s a kind of lizard, there’s no males, not at all. The eggs are produced in the females, and somehow the genetics works. It turns out, actually, that humans could produce parthgenically, we have all of the codes in the eggs, but a certain section of the genes is switched ‘off’, but they’re switched ‘on’ in the sperm. So if a sperm fertilizes an egg, it goes all the way to making a complete baby, but if the egg does it by itself, then the baby goes wrong, doesn’t fully form, and then aborts. So there are cases where they’ve found a half-formed baby, or at least discrete genetic material, like hair or teeth, and they’ve got a different dna, in a woman’s ovary. But yes, in fact the majority of the species on this planet have male and female. And that's really interesting, I do wonder why evolution brought us to this point. I mean, from an evolutionary perspective, why do you really need men?
Okay, wait, you were talking about male privilege, what is the main problem for women?
Constrainment of choices!
Okay, don’t say that. I don’t see how that’s true.
Well, you’re male! You have the privilege to not see it!
…
I can say, from my marriage, I can say that asking this question, asking is equality important? In marriage, I have learned so much, it’s about mutual respect. I can say nothing is more important than that.
Of course, in marriage you need to respect your wife’s thinking. If she thinks you’re not treating her with a better way, you need to treat her with a better way. You need to respect her thought and treat her better. I say respect is based on what you believe and what you think.
Um, because I’m a homeschooling father, so I find out if I’m not supporting enough, or I’m ignorant sometimes, I’ll see that our family functions less than it should be. So supporting your wife is supporting your family, if you want our family to prosper.
You have the responsibility to take care of your family. It’s not only your wife’s responsibility. You have the right and the duty to teach your children, maybe to grow up to stand beside your children while they are growing up.
Well, I usually see our family as a unit, so I think every family member has their contribution, and, um, I would say that family is the learning center of our first socialization, and I um, hadn’t thought
about that much before I got married. I realized, when I was a father, in addition to taking care of, being a financial support, I also have to educate my children. And sometimes I would ignore my wife’s emotion, and not give enough support to what she’s doing, and I would see that the happiness of the family would not be good. Maybe my viewpoint is very partial, but it’s what I feel.
Something comes up in my brain. I think, cuz the author mention that boy are growing up knowing that one day they will have to function. Today we sit there and discuss the many aspect of this question, it’s because we are well educated. I think is feminism important implies that good education is important, and its because, uh, we are well educated, we are more open minded, and will have a positive manner towards the question or on what you have seen on a lot of events.
Your experience.
Yes! And so the core concept of feminism, I think it will eventually be how we educate our new education, it depends on how you educate your children, and how do they know that we cannot just thinking about yourself. We should think about…it’s something like that we should help others if we have enough ability. There’s a Taiwanese saying, it’s something like, the happiest thing is to help other people.
It’s that, why we need feminism is it comes from there are some inequality between men and women. But it’s just not what I thought, it is not important to just find, to observe sorts of situations we know or we observe, the most important is your manner toward this problem, and a good attitude comes from good education.
It’s like, our education is teach us to believe our society is formed by male and female. So the form of the marriage is to generate a new generation, for our children. So if, the marriage is not for children, for example, two young people they got married, but they don’t want to have children, it’s nothing, they don’t care about their equal status, because the nature of unequal, the factor does not exist, because they don’t want to have baby. They’re only married to live together. I don’t care you are male or female, I just want to live with you. So if this is the situation, then nothing unequal You can declare your right for you living, or anything. I would say, it’s another interesting point.
It really is.
It’s just like lesbian or gay for our society, homosexual is unusual. But in western society, it’s normal. It’s a kind of cultural acceptance. So it’s question of what you want to support. So the most important thing is, we define our marriage is for, you need to have your own children, so you define role of father, and role of mother, so family is for children. So it’s a kind of education system, to give us belief.
Sorry, what I mean for education, is not normal education. Its not just you have to go to school and listen what teacher say to you. My meaning for education, is for our school system, we have teach you to believe something, maybe is for knowledge, maybe is for living style, It’s a process for you learning something. It’s not necessary for education system, just for your learning process.
Maybe you can put that in another way, that you shift your focus to further self development for each individual, instead of devotion to your family, maybe that would be more clear. So everyone deserves to have his or her potential fully developed.
Well, let me say another way. We have equal right to learn, to know our potential, and to develop our own life, and meanwhile we need to communicate and to coordinate, to compromise, to have same conscious then finally we need to cooperate with each other. So that our human society could function well, and could keep going, and will not misfunction at all, and be destroyed.
This conversation is intensely interesting. How do you define family? In my experience, family was very strong when I was a child, then when the children grew up and left home, it’s like the family was dismantled, it was a formal shell, not a living organism. Before modern society, family was your social security, children were how you were cared for in old age. But when families dismantle, your social security is also dismantled. But in modern society, actually, you can create family, from unrelated people. People are choosing to live together in groups, because more people living together is much easier than just dad mom 2.2 children. It’s called ‘intentional community’. You can Google that and learn some interesting things about creating a family not from blood relatives.
I also came from a dismantled family. In my growing up, in my childhood, my family seldom got support from our, from our…my main point is that I come from dismantled family, I don’t got any support from my cousin, my relatives, but I still can live well by myself. That’s why I don’t think family support would mean anything in my life. I think this can be, just be an extra option, if you have a good family network, maybe you can live more well.
I think this is true. A good family network of any sort, allows you to live more well.
It’s a human mystery. There’s some combination, some component that lives in our blood. It’s not removable, even though we don’t live together, we have a relationship, contact.
Who is family???
Good question!
The Grandmother Factor
Are old women important?
Choose a side:Team A) No. If you look at it in economic terms, they can’t have children any more, and they’re too old to have jobs, so they’re not economically useful at all. Old people are just a burden on society.
Team B) Yes. They play an important role in child raising, and strongly influence the quality of the people around them, both economically and spiritually.
Team C) Moderator.
Team D) No. Old women shouldn’t raise children, because they’re not modern enough. They don’t understand what a modern society needs, and they’ll teach the child all wrong.
Team E) Yes. Old women have a lot of life experience, and they’ve seen a lot more children than a young woman. So they know what to expect from a child, and will have a lot more mature of a response when difficult situations arise.
Taipei Discussion Transcript: Grandmothers
Participants: Mary, Maggie, Willie, Fanny, Angela
So it’s really common for Taiwan?
Yes.
You mentioned grandfathers in Taiwan really like getting involved in raising children.
Yes, because they’re retired, and watching TV is boring, and they want to get involved.
I think that’s amazing, that’s not something you think of.
Okay, shall we start?
Yes.
I’m team b, because I think that old people they have their, like, life experience about different things, and they know better than young people, and because they are grandmothers, and they love their grandkids, and so they want to take care of them. Maybe not just grandmom, just someone they are close to, and they will play that kind of role to them.
I also choose team b, because I think grandma play an important role of child-raising and they also contribute to the housework, and share the burden from mothers in each family. So I choose team b. Oh, they also have a lot experience in life.
Well, I’m not pretty sure if my grandmother have a lot of experiences in life, but grandmothers are the best of taking care of children, basically, the most important reason, basically, it’s kind of that they’ve learned a lot from raising our mother or father. I don’t know why, probably because those grandmothers, when mothers turn to grandmothers, they have lots of chances to exchange experiences with other mothers and grandmothers, makes them more knowledgeable, so this makes them better. Children brought up by grandmothers are ‘white and fat’. Like they say.
I agree with the article, that they have better survival.
Basically I think grandmothers know lots of details that mothers don’t know. And the mothers learn this 30 years later, for their grandkids.
So are you team b or team e?
I’m team b. I think the important part is not teaching children things. Usually that is affected by their traditional values, not pretty sure, it’s not all positive from the educational side, but they’re simply the best for taking care, on the survival side, to promote the probability of survival.
I’m also team b. And they all…the answer of team b, is just like you, because the grandmother has lots of information and knowledge about life and survival, and so, I think team b. Thank you! Thank you!
So we’re all team B. What do we talk about
Maybe I can provide an example with my grandma and me. Most grandmother only focus on raising their grandchildren, but I learned a lot of discipline from my daily life with my grandma. She asked me to make my bed when I get up, and also asked me to clean the table when I finished eating. So I learned a lot. What she taught me had a great influence on my personality.
Your mother didn’t make you do that?
My mother only focus on my homework, and how I behave in school.
Education!
Yeah yeah yeah, but not about…
…daily life!
Yeah. And also I like my grandma, because she help me a lot in some kind of home work, like sewing clothes or dolls, like that.
My grandma always gave us ice cream, cookies and soda, all at the same time. We could have as much as we wanted. That was so not what we were allowed at home! It’s how I learned that ice cream and cookies are good, and soda and ice cream is good, and cookies and soda are good, but all three together will make you sick.
But you know, I could have learned that as an adult, too, because if I wanted now to eat all three at the same time, I still could.
Isn’t it great to be an adult?
But I like being a child better. I’m under their protection, and I don’t have to earn money.
But I like being an adult, so I can spend money on whatever I want, because I earned it myself.
So it’s the opposite. Sometimes I think, yeah, I’m an adult, and I can buy whatever I want, so it’s a…
Tradeoff.
Yes!
A little I want to grow up, and I don’t want to grow up.
That’s because you’re still in school and people still can tell you what to do or not.
I think you’re right. I’m so used obeying criteria, so I’m a little afraid of making my own decisions.
Yeah, you know when I got my first job, I just thought, oh my god, I’m free now. I make my own money, I pay my own way, I’m free!
Is that because you didn’t live with your parents? Because I have my own job…
Yes. Moving out is a wonderful thing.
Exactly. My dad is always complaining that I’m watching TV. I thought about getting a TV for my room, but there’s no cable line. Ugh! You need cable!
I think that you can watch cable TV on the internet right now. The resolution is a little bad though.
Yes, but if your ADSL speed is too slow, though…
I think the point is that if there’s a lot more people watching with you, it’s faster.
Faster? Why?
Because they’re sharing the bandwidth.
So you do that a lot?
I watch live sports events. But actually I don’t watch a lot of TV lately.
Good!
I think I’m just tired of watching TV.
Well, the internet is a worse timewaster. In TV, you have to wait for your program to come on, but…
But going back, I think that for parents, they always think you’re their kids, even if you’re 40.
It’s so true.
Is it true that in the US, 18 year olds hate to be told to be careful?
Not just 18 year olds—anybody. Even a six year old hates that.
You know, when a mom says that, it’s a little like, they don’t trust me. Just like once I wanted to invest in stock market, but my mother turned to very angry, and she just said, I have invest for you, so why do want to invest by yourself?
Well, that’s different from my mom, that my mom push me to invest. I think the main reason is that she doesn’t trust my dad.
(Everyone laughs)
She doesn’t trust your dad what?
Well, he reads a lot of Warren Buffet stuff, but he’s terrible! When I started understanding what he was doing, I was like, what are you doing wasting your time reading those books?
So your dad invests?
Well, my mom is busier than my dad, so my dad helps her with the family finances, but he’s terrible.
So your mom encourage you to do it?
Yeah, because she thought I would be more reasonable. But I still think that, when we grow older, parents just look like distractions. Just like you say, when you grow older you want to fly high and do bigger things, and your parents become kind of a distraction. Or even kind of a big stone stop you. I just hope if I become a parent some day, I won’t control them too much. Because I think that when people protect their kids too much, it makes them mediocre. Usually I told my mom, that you guys were great parents and good educators before we were 15, but not anymore, because if my brother and I take your suggestions now, we won’t be able to completely show our talents. So I think kids should leave their family earlier, before 25. If you leave too late, after 30, it’s no good. That’s why I said that from the educational side, grandmothers, it’s good for the kids, they don’t know much about the world, and they have to learn discipline and stuff. But when you grow older, just like it said, it’s modern society, they’re not equipped with the knowledge or tools which is for this century. If you can learn all their tools, which they could use to survive in the 70s, or 80s, that’s a different story.
But sometimes, grandmothers might know how children might behave in certain cases. For example, one of my neighbors, she is a grandmother, she recently complained how her son educate her grandson. Because her son likes to ride motorcycle very fast. And will bring his grandson with.
Oh, dangerous!
So one day, she found her grandson ride his bike very fast, and jump down and said, “I win”. But she’s so opposed in the first place.
So probably she can buy him a helmet.
Who?
The kid.
But both think she or her son should teach her grandson you shouldn’t ride so fast, even she put on the helmet.
But my point is, the kid could ride fast, but it depends on the occasion. Just that it’s not appropriate for him to ride fast on the road or sidewalk, but if there are specific roads for bicycles, it’s okay.
If he’s careful of the other people ion the road.
My advice is, send him to motor GP, and he will know how dangerous.
What’s motor GP?
It’s like formula 500 for motorcycles, so he can see how dangerous it is.
But her son is only 4 or 5 years old.
I really think it’s just location dependent. I think you can’t really tell him you should not ride it fast on the sidewalk or road. But if there are other places, like motor gp, then he can.
Getting back to our discussion, I think that there’s something interesting, that a mother’s mother…
Yeah yeah yeah, that was an interesting point.
The mother’s mother was better at helping the kids survive.
Why not the father's mother?
Well, it’s in the article.
Why?
Well, I’m not pretty sure, because the coincidence was that I’m raised by my maternal grandmother, I didn’t know my paternal grandmother.
Is that true for anyone else?
Well, my mother’s mother died pretty early, so I have no memories of her.
But it sounds like your father’s mother took really good care of you.
Yes, I respect her, and I want to be like her. Because she travel almost the whole Taiwan. And when she lived with us, she can take care of her self, wash her clothes, etc, and she never intervene the affairs between the family
Oh, smart of her!
Yes.
I’m also raised by father’s mother. The paternal grandmother. The reason that my paternal grandmother raise me is my maternal grandmother think I am too annoying for my second uncle. Because he is studying, and I’m crying, because I’m a baby. And my maternal grandmother think I’m too annoying, so she told my mother to send me to my grandmother. And from I am a one-years baby, my grandmother raise me till I am 12.
How far away did she live from your family?
My paternal grandmother live in Chaiyi, and my maternal grandmother live in Kaoshiung.
Where did your family live?
Taipei! So I am running around between three cities. But for a child, I think it’s fun.
Probably because you were loved in all three places.
But when I grew up, I think my maternal grandmother’s treat me nice, better than when I was a baby.
Are you the oldest child?
Did she raise anybody after you?
Yes, my sister is raised by her. Because she said my mother want to send my sister to my paternal grandmother, but she said she had no energy to raise the second child, so my maternal grandmother have to raise my sister.
So is there a great difference between you and your sister?
No, we have almost the same character.
And the same behavior? And values?
Behavior, yes, values, not exactly the same, but similar. The thinking mode of my sister and I is very similar, even the voice. We have similar character. It’s very interesting, because she lived in Kaohsiung, I lived in Chaiyi, but we’re so similar. I don’t know how to describe, when we grow up, we found we have similar voice, similar character and value.
And what about your grandmothers?
I think I’m closer to my paternal grandmom, because she stayed with us when I was little, I don’t know how long, but she had three sons, so she would take turns, so when she came to stay with us, I was six or seven years old, she would buy things I like, and a lot of food, when we went to traditional market, especially. And watching TV together, she would like look at me while I was watching.
So she really loved you.
Well, she didn’t have too much to do at that time.
How about your maternal grandma?
I don’t have that much experience that we are close together, maybe because we didn’t live together. But I think my auntie’s more like my mom, because I was raised by her, because my mom was busy at the time. That’s why I think your grandma doesn’t have to be your real grandma. Because when she cared for me, her kids were already like 20 something.
My father always complained my grandfather, because my grandfather always treat me nice. I think Taiwanese grandfather always get involved with their grandson.
But you’re a granddaughter.
Well, yes.
My paternal grandfather died 20 years before I was born. But my maternal grandfather liked me a lot more than my brother, because my performance in school was great. My brother’s smarter than me, actually, but he doesn’t care about schoolwork, so he doesn’t perform as well. He’s not a traditional kid, he doesn’t obey the rules, so my grandfather doesn’t like him as much as me. So I was really sad when he passed away, I think it was my 18 years old. My mom told me I was like the representative, because there are four grandchildren of him, my brother, my two cousins, and I, and my mom said that my grandfather loves me the most, because of that. But I think the best memory of him, was that he was the guard of a textile company in Tainan, and I live with them at that time, and one day, you know what the guards do, they have to go to every checkpoint, to record that they checked it, and I got to go with him. I was five years old, so I just went with him. When the mission ended, we went to his like, employees restaurant to have an ice-cream. And I remember that. And I got a cold the next day. Getting a cold is kind of serious stuff when I was small, and I remember my grandmother yelling at my grandfather about that, but it was a fun memory. I think the point is that I’m not very familiar with my father. I’m familiar with my mother, and my grandparents. My father worked in Taipei, and we lived together in Tainan. So I think the point is I would do my best to get to know my son, because if you don’t play or work with them when they are small, they will know you are their father, but they won’t know you. I lived with my grandparents, but I didn’t learn Taiwanese.
That’s really interesting, and you were in Tainan, of all places?
And my mother spoke Taiwanese with them. So I think the funny part is, I can understand what they’re saying, but I can’t speak.
So you speak Chinese to your grandparents, and they speak Taiwanese to you.
Yes, because their Chinese skills are limited, and my Taiwanese is limited. But we could understand. Also, when they speak to me in Taiwanese, they don’t require a response from me.
My paternal grandfather and mother learned Chinese so hard, so they can speak Chinese with their grandchildren, so all of us don’t speak Taiwanese.
But I think learning the mother tongue helps you to understand the culture. So even though I can’t speak it too well, I try to expose myself to it, and ask what words mean, and why they speak like that.
I always laugh at my sister’s Taiwanese.
So they didn’t speak Taiwanese with her in Kaoshiung?
I speak Taiwanese better than my classmates!
I grew up in three places, so my Taiwanese is merged! But my Taiwanese is similar to Beigang, because that’s where my grandparents are from. So I have a Beigang accent. But I have several words I use in kaoshiung accent.
So it’s really common for Taiwan?
Yes.
You mentioned grandfathers in Taiwan really like getting involved in raising children.
Yes, because they’re retired, and watching TV is boring, and they want to get involved.
I think that’s amazing, that’s not something you think of.
Okay, shall we start?
Yes.
I’m team b, because I think that old people they have their, like, life experience about different things, and they know better than young people, and because they are grandmothers, and they love their grandkids, and so they want to take care of them. Maybe not just grandmom, just someone they are close to, and they will play that kind of role to them.
I also choose team b, because I think grandma play an important role of child-raising and they also contribute to the housework, and share the burden from mothers in each family. So I choose team b. Oh, they also have a lot experience in life.
Well, I’m not pretty sure if my grandmother have a lot of experiences in life, but grandmothers are the best of taking care of children, basically, the most important reason, basically, it’s kind of that they’ve learned a lot from raising our mother or father. I don’t know why, probably because those grandmothers, when mothers turn to grandmothers, they have lots of chances to exchange experiences with other mothers and grandmothers, makes them more knowledgeable, so this makes them better. Children brought up by grandmothers are ‘white and fat’. Like they say.
I agree with the article, that they have better survival.
Basically I think grandmothers know lots of details that mothers don’t know. And the mothers learn this 30 years later, for their grandkids.
So are you team b or team e?
I’m team b. I think the important part is not teaching children things. Usually that is affected by their traditional values, not pretty sure, it’s not all positive from the educational side, but they’re simply the best for taking care, on the survival side, to promote the probability of survival.
I’m also team b. And they all…the answer of team b, is just like you, because the grandmother has lots of information and knowledge about life and survival, and so, I think team b. Thank you! Thank you!
So we’re all team B. What do we talk about
Maybe I can provide an example with my grandma and me. Most grandmother only focus on raising their grandchildren, but I learned a lot of discipline from my daily life with my grandma. She asked me to make my bed when I get up, and also asked me to clean the table when I finished eating. So I learned a lot. What she taught me had a great influence on my personality.
Your mother didn’t make you do that?
My mother only focus on my homework, and how I behave in school.
Education!
Yeah yeah yeah, but not about…
…daily life!
Yeah. And also I like my grandma, because she help me a lot in some kind of home work, like sewing clothes or dolls, like that.
My grandma always gave us ice cream, cookies and soda, all at the same time. We could have as much as we wanted. That was so not what we were allowed at home! It’s how I learned that ice cream and cookies are good, and soda and ice cream is good, and cookies and soda are good, but all three together will make you sick.
But you know, I could have learned that as an adult, too, because if I wanted now to eat all three at the same time, I still could.
Isn’t it great to be an adult?
But I like being a child better. I’m under their protection, and I don’t have to earn money.
But I like being an adult, so I can spend money on whatever I want, because I earned it myself.
So it’s the opposite. Sometimes I think, yeah, I’m an adult, and I can buy whatever I want, so it’s a…
Tradeoff.
Yes!
A little I want to grow up, and I don’t want to grow up.
That’s because you’re still in school and people still can tell you what to do or not.
I think you’re right. I’m so used obeying criteria, so I’m a little afraid of making my own decisions.
Yeah, you know when I got my first job, I just thought, oh my god, I’m free now. I make my own money, I pay my own way, I’m free!
Is that because you didn’t live with your parents? Because I have my own job…
Yes. Moving out is a wonderful thing.
Exactly. My dad is always complaining that I’m watching TV. I thought about getting a TV for my room, but there’s no cable line. Ugh! You need cable!
I think that you can watch cable TV on the internet right now. The resolution is a little bad though.
Yes, but if your ADSL speed is too slow, though…
I think the point is that if there’s a lot more people watching with you, it’s faster.
Faster? Why?
Because they’re sharing the bandwidth.
So you do that a lot?
I watch live sports events. But actually I don’t watch a lot of TV lately.
Good!
I think I’m just tired of watching TV.
Well, the internet is a worse timewaster. In TV, you have to wait for your program to come on, but…
But going back, I think that for parents, they always think you’re their kids, even if you’re 40.
It’s so true.
Is it true that in the US, 18 year olds hate to be told to be careful?
Not just 18 year olds—anybody. Even a six year old hates that.
You know, when a mom says that, it’s a little like, they don’t trust me. Just like once I wanted to invest in stock market, but my mother turned to very angry, and she just said, I have invest for you, so why do want to invest by yourself?
Well, that’s different from my mom, that my mom push me to invest. I think the main reason is that she doesn’t trust my dad.
(Everyone laughs)
She doesn’t trust your dad what?
Well, he reads a lot of Warren Buffet stuff, but he’s terrible! When I started understanding what he was doing, I was like, what are you doing wasting your time reading those books?
So your dad invests?
Well, my mom is busier than my dad, so my dad helps her with the family finances, but he’s terrible.
So your mom encourage you to do it?
Yeah, because she thought I would be more reasonable. But I still think that, when we grow older, parents just look like distractions. Just like you say, when you grow older you want to fly high and do bigger things, and your parents become kind of a distraction. Or even kind of a big stone stop you. I just hope if I become a parent some day, I won’t control them too much. Because I think that when people protect their kids too much, it makes them mediocre. Usually I told my mom, that you guys were great parents and good educators before we were 15, but not anymore, because if my brother and I take your suggestions now, we won’t be able to completely show our talents. So I think kids should leave their family earlier, before 25. If you leave too late, after 30, it’s no good. That’s why I said that from the educational side, grandmothers, it’s good for the kids, they don’t know much about the world, and they have to learn discipline and stuff. But when you grow older, just like it said, it’s modern society, they’re not equipped with the knowledge or tools which is for this century. If you can learn all their tools, which they could use to survive in the 70s, or 80s, that’s a different story.
But sometimes, grandmothers might know how children might behave in certain cases. For example, one of my neighbors, she is a grandmother, she recently complained how her son educate her grandson. Because her son likes to ride motorcycle very fast. And will bring his grandson with.
Oh, dangerous!
So one day, she found her grandson ride his bike very fast, and jump down and said, “I win”. But she’s so opposed in the first place.
So probably she can buy him a helmet.
Who?
The kid.
But both think she or her son should teach her grandson you shouldn’t ride so fast, even she put on the helmet.
But my point is, the kid could ride fast, but it depends on the occasion. Just that it’s not appropriate for him to ride fast on the road or sidewalk, but if there are specific roads for bicycles, it’s okay.
If he’s careful of the other people ion the road.
My advice is, send him to motor GP, and he will know how dangerous.
What’s motor GP?
It’s like formula 500 for motorcycles, so he can see how dangerous it is.
But her son is only 4 or 5 years old.
I really think it’s just location dependent. I think you can’t really tell him you should not ride it fast on the sidewalk or road. But if there are other places, like motor gp, then he can.
Getting back to our discussion, I think that there’s something interesting, that a mother’s mother…
Yeah yeah yeah, that was an interesting point.
The mother’s mother was better at helping the kids survive.
Why not the father's mother?
Well, it’s in the article.
Why?
Well, I’m not pretty sure, because the coincidence was that I’m raised by my maternal grandmother, I didn’t know my paternal grandmother.
Is that true for anyone else?
Well, my mother’s mother died pretty early, so I have no memories of her.
But it sounds like your father’s mother took really good care of you.
Yes, I respect her, and I want to be like her. Because she travel almost the whole Taiwan. And when she lived with us, she can take care of her self, wash her clothes, etc, and she never intervene the affairs between the family
Oh, smart of her!
Yes.
I’m also raised by father’s mother. The paternal grandmother. The reason that my paternal grandmother raise me is my maternal grandmother think I am too annoying for my second uncle. Because he is studying, and I’m crying, because I’m a baby. And my maternal grandmother think I’m too annoying, so she told my mother to send me to my grandmother. And from I am a one-years baby, my grandmother raise me till I am 12.
How far away did she live from your family?
My paternal grandmother live in Chaiyi, and my maternal grandmother live in Kaoshiung.
Where did your family live?
Taipei! So I am running around between three cities. But for a child, I think it’s fun.
Probably because you were loved in all three places.
But when I grew up, I think my maternal grandmother’s treat me nice, better than when I was a baby.
Are you the oldest child?
Did she raise anybody after you?
Yes, my sister is raised by her. Because she said my mother want to send my sister to my paternal grandmother, but she said she had no energy to raise the second child, so my maternal grandmother have to raise my sister.
So is there a great difference between you and your sister?
No, we have almost the same character.
And the same behavior? And values?
Behavior, yes, values, not exactly the same, but similar. The thinking mode of my sister and I is very similar, even the voice. We have similar character. It’s very interesting, because she lived in Kaohsiung, I lived in Chaiyi, but we’re so similar. I don’t know how to describe, when we grow up, we found we have similar voice, similar character and value.
And what about your grandmothers?
I think I’m closer to my paternal grandmom, because she stayed with us when I was little, I don’t know how long, but she had three sons, so she would take turns, so when she came to stay with us, I was six or seven years old, she would buy things I like, and a lot of food, when we went to traditional market, especially. And watching TV together, she would like look at me while I was watching.
So she really loved you.
Well, she didn’t have too much to do at that time.
How about your maternal grandma?
I don’t have that much experience that we are close together, maybe because we didn’t live together. But I think my auntie’s more like my mom, because I was raised by her, because my mom was busy at the time. That’s why I think your grandma doesn’t have to be your real grandma. Because when she cared for me, her kids were already like 20 something.
My father always complained my grandfather, because my grandfather always treat me nice. I think Taiwanese grandfather always get involved with their grandson.
But you’re a granddaughter.
Well, yes.
My paternal grandfather died 20 years before I was born. But my maternal grandfather liked me a lot more than my brother, because my performance in school was great. My brother’s smarter than me, actually, but he doesn’t care about schoolwork, so he doesn’t perform as well. He’s not a traditional kid, he doesn’t obey the rules, so my grandfather doesn’t like him as much as me. So I was really sad when he passed away, I think it was my 18 years old. My mom told me I was like the representative, because there are four grandchildren of him, my brother, my two cousins, and I, and my mom said that my grandfather loves me the most, because of that. But I think the best memory of him, was that he was the guard of a textile company in Tainan, and I live with them at that time, and one day, you know what the guards do, they have to go to every checkpoint, to record that they checked it, and I got to go with him. I was five years old, so I just went with him. When the mission ended, we went to his like, employees restaurant to have an ice-cream. And I remember that. And I got a cold the next day. Getting a cold is kind of serious stuff when I was small, and I remember my grandmother yelling at my grandfather about that, but it was a fun memory. I think the point is that I’m not very familiar with my father. I’m familiar with my mother, and my grandparents. My father worked in Taipei, and we lived together in Tainan. So I think the point is I would do my best to get to know my son, because if you don’t play or work with them when they are small, they will know you are their father, but they won’t know you. I lived with my grandparents, but I didn’t learn Taiwanese.
That’s really interesting, and you were in Tainan, of all places?
And my mother spoke Taiwanese with them. So I think the funny part is, I can understand what they’re saying, but I can’t speak.
So you speak Chinese to your grandparents, and they speak Taiwanese to you.
Yes, because their Chinese skills are limited, and my Taiwanese is limited. But we could understand. Also, when they speak to me in Taiwanese, they don’t require a response from me.
My paternal grandfather and mother learned Chinese so hard, so they can speak Chinese with their grandchildren, so all of us don’t speak Taiwanese.
But I think learning the mother tongue helps you to understand the culture. So even though I can’t speak it too well, I try to expose myself to it, and ask what words mean, and why they speak like that.
I always laugh at my sister’s Taiwanese.
So they didn’t speak Taiwanese with her in Kaoshiung?
I speak Taiwanese better than my classmates!
I grew up in three places, so my Taiwanese is merged! But my Taiwanese is similar to Beigang, because that’s where my grandparents are from. So I have a Beigang accent. But I have several words I use in kaoshiung accent.
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