看看女性的力量有多偉大
原來,我們女性是可以呼風喚雨的呢！別小看我們自己！
語出驚人 伊斯蘭教長者：女性行為不檢 導致地震
2010-04-20 新聞速報 【中時電子報/綜合報導】
根據英國衛報報導，一名伊朗籍的伊斯蘭教長者表示，近來地球多災多難，強震不斷，乃是因女性行為失序、衣著過於暴露所導致的後果；而伊朗總統馬丁加德稍早也語出驚人地預言，德黑蘭將會有強震來襲。
語出驚人 伊斯蘭教長者：女性行為不檢 導致地震
2010-04-20 新聞速報 【中時電子報/綜合報導】
根據英國衛報報導，一名伊朗籍的伊斯蘭教長者表示，近來地球多災多難，強震不斷，乃是因女性行為失序、衣著過於暴露所導致的後果；而伊朗總統馬丁加德稍早也語出驚人地預言，德黑蘭將會有強震來襲。
Next English Discussion on Sunday, 4/25 3pm
Hello! Our next English Discussion meeting will be held at The Studio, on Sunday April 25th at 3pm.
The topic is "The Case for Flip Flops and Flowing Robes", a discussion of clothes women are required to wear in order to appear feminine, and whether 'appearing feminine' is useful.
The topic is "The Case for Flip Flops and Flowing Robes", a discussion of clothes women are required to wear in order to appear feminine, and whether 'appearing feminine' is useful.
你要什麼樣的自由?
你追求什麼樣的自由？一種是掙脫什麼的自由；另一種是努力創造什麼而自由。多數人要的自由大概就是第一種，幾乎很少人想過第二種自由。掙脫了枷鎖得到的自由很短暫，很快地，我們變會發現這樣的自由很空虛，因為接下來呢？我們找不到支撐自由的力量。而創造什麼而得到的自由，才是真正的自由，真正讓人能夠長久擁有的自由。
What kind of freedom are you pursuing? One kind of freedom comes from extricating yourself from something. The other kind comes from creating something. The former one is really temporary. Soon we’ll find this kind of freedom is quite empty because what comes next? We can’t find the supporting force behind it. However, the later one is the real freedom, a long-lasting freedom.
What kind of freedom are you pursuing? One kind of freedom comes from extricating yourself from something. The other kind comes from creating something. The former one is really temporary. Soon we’ll find this kind of freedom is quite empty because what comes next? We can’t find the supporting force behind it. However, the later one is the real freedom, a long-lasting freedom.
On Teaching Responsibility
如果年輕人對自己的生活被賦予責任和權力，也許她們會成為有責任感的大人，因此可能不需要為某個不可捉摸迫切的慾望控制別人.
If young people are given responsibility and power over their own lives, they grow up to be responsible people who perhaps might not have the need to exercise control over other people to satisfy some undefinable hunger in themselves.
If young people are given responsibility and power over their own lives, they grow up to be responsible people who perhaps might not have the need to exercise control over other people to satisfy some undefinable hunger in themselves.
Next RethinkingOurselves meeting: Sunday, 1/17
Hello all! The next RethinkingOurselves meeting (in English) is taking place on Sunday, 1/17 at 3pm, at the Catmints Cafe.
羅斯福路二段101巷9號, (捷運古亭3號出口) (02)8369-1271
Roosevelt Rd, Sec 2, Lane 101, No. 9. MRT Kuting Exit No. 3
The article we are discussing is from the Economist.
Women in the Workforce
There is a short related article that is worth reading, too, for extra argumentative (ha!) value.
Womenenomics
There are comments to the story, too. Fanny notes that they are sure to piss me (Angela) off. Since I'm enjoying my Wednesday, I'm going to leave this for later in the week. However, I'm sure they'll be very instructive in illustrating concepts that the article glossed over.
Comments to Women in the Workforce article.
Happy reading!
羅斯福路二段101巷9號, (捷運古亭3號出口) (02)8369-1271
Roosevelt Rd, Sec 2, Lane 101, No. 9. MRT Kuting Exit No. 3
The article we are discussing is from the Economist.
Women in the Workforce
There is a short related article that is worth reading, too, for extra argumentative (ha!) value.
Womenenomics
There are comments to the story, too. Fanny notes that they are sure to piss me (Angela) off. Since I'm enjoying my Wednesday, I'm going to leave this for later in the week. However, I'm sure they'll be very instructive in illustrating concepts that the article glossed over.
Comments to Women in the Workforce article.
Happy reading!
丈夫眼中的老婆
日劇「人妻的遊戲」中，那些丈夫不是把妻子當成裝飾品(decoration)，就是家事及性事機器人(robots for housekeeping and sex)。我感到很生氣。
而且，老婆把錢花去哪裡，花了多少錢，都必須跟丈夫報告。甚至，老婆跟誰見面，都必須經過丈夫同意。我感到很生氣。
若不是這些老婆被要求放棄工作，在家幫男人打掃洗衣，省去男人的麻煩，這些男人有辦法專心工作、分心花天酒地、分心養小老婆嗎? !! 我很生氣。
而這些男人要求老婆放棄工作、在家當黃臉婆，自己就覺得在外面賺錢是很了不起的事情，嫌棄老婆沒知識，罵老婆是笨蛋，卻沒有想過：他們的老婆是為了誰而犧牲？這些老婆在結婚前，哪一個不是知識份子？
我對家庭裡，丈夫、爸爸，這種覺得「自己最辛苦」、「只有自己為了家而付出」的「自以為是」(self-righteous)的想法，很生氣。
而且，老婆把錢花去哪裡，花了多少錢，都必須跟丈夫報告。甚至，老婆跟誰見面，都必須經過丈夫同意。我感到很生氣。
若不是這些老婆被要求放棄工作，在家幫男人打掃洗衣，省去男人的麻煩，這些男人有辦法專心工作、分心花天酒地、分心養小老婆嗎? !! 我很生氣。
而這些男人要求老婆放棄工作、在家當黃臉婆，自己就覺得在外面賺錢是很了不起的事情，嫌棄老婆沒知識，罵老婆是笨蛋，卻沒有想過：他們的老婆是為了誰而犧牲？這些老婆在結婚前，哪一個不是知識份子？
我對家庭裡，丈夫、爸爸，這種覺得「自己最辛苦」、「只有自己為了家而付出」的「自以為是」(self-righteous)的想法，很生氣。
所謂的'真實的'語言 'Factual' Language
本文給了很好的例子解釋 所謂的'真實的'語言對於事實會呈現不同的意義.
特別是給了例子解釋報紙新聞標題如何模糊了男人對於性暴力所應擔負的責任, 讓性侵與家暴變成女人的責任. 我們要讓男人自我省察,不要成為加害者
This article gives excellent examples of how 'factual' language can present the apparent meaning of facts very differently.
It especially gives good examples of how men are disappeared from headlines about rape, giving rise to the idea that women are somehow responsible for their own rapes, rather than saying that men had better stop raping.
特別是給了例子解釋報紙新聞標題如何模糊了男人對於性暴力所應擔負的責任, 讓性侵與家暴變成女人的責任. 我們要讓男人自我省察,不要成為加害者
This article gives excellent examples of how 'factual' language can present the apparent meaning of facts very differently.
It especially gives good examples of how men are disappeared from headlines about rape, giving rise to the idea that women are somehow responsible for their own rapes, rather than saying that men had better stop raping.
I Want a Twenty-Four-Hour Truce During Which There Is No Rape
This is a difficult article. Difficult in that it is the transcript of a long speech. And difficult because Andrea Dworkin speaks the unvarnished truth. No prettiness, no vagueness. So it is powerful, and also hard to hear. I've read it twice in the past ten years, and only reading it this third time do I finally realize how clearly and exactly she lays out the situation. It was I who had to clean out my ears: she was speaking as clearly the whole time.
Edited to add: Stacy feels this article (in Chinese) is related to the above. I haven't read it yet, but will, before we meet.
Edited to add: I've read it now, and there is a new post about it here.
This is a difficult article. Difficult in that it is the transcript of a long speech. And difficult because Andrea Dworkin speaks the unvarnished truth. No prettiness, no vagueness. So it is powerful, and also hard to hear. I've read it twice in the past ten years, and only reading it this third time do I finally realize how clearly and exactly she lays out the situation. It was I who had to clean out my ears: she was speaking as clearly the whole time.
Edited to add: Stacy feels this article (in Chinese) is related to the above. I haven't read it yet, but will, before we meet.
Edited to add: I've read it now, and there is a new post about it here.
Trust
Our next meeting is in our new space!! Yay!!
Rethinkingourselves finally has its own clubhouse!
The new space is called "Three Circles", and the address is
和平東路一段177號4F之10 (Hoping East Road, Sec. 1, No. 177, 4F-10).
The article this week is from Shakesville. It's very long, so if you don't have time, just read the words in boldface. (I've also simplified it a bit from the original.) Oh, and hey, here's an excellent translator for individual words, and here's a good one for short phrases. Cut, paste, and understand! :) They're awesome, I use them all the time for reading and writing chinese.
If I played by misogynists' rules, specifically the one that dictates it only takes one woman doing one Mean or Duplicitous or Disrespectful or Unlawful or otherwise Bad Thing to justify hatred of all women, I would have plenty of justification for hating men, if I wanted to.
Our next meeting is this Sunday, 10/11 at 3pm. The moderator is Angela.
The article this week is from Shakesville. It's very long, so if you don't have time, just read the words in boldface. (I've also simplified it a bit from the original.) Oh, and hey, here's an excellent translator for individual words, and here's a good one for short phrases. Cut, paste, and understand! :) They're awesome, I use them all the time for reading and writing chinese.
Excerpts from A Terrible Bargain We Have Regretfully Struck:
If I played by misogynists' rules, specifically the one that dictates it only takes one woman doing one Mean or Duplicitous or Disrespectful or Unlawful or otherwise Bad Thing to justify hatred of all women, I would have plenty of justification for hating men, if I wanted to.
Next meeting is NEXT WEEK, 9/13!
It's a rethinkingourselves bonus meeting! Our next meeting is next sunday, September 13, at Catmints Cafe.
Angela is the moderator.
Actually, the reason we're doing the next meeting so soon is because it's a follow-up topic. We talked about privilege this week, and how not recognizing the privilege of being the race in power makes it difficult for white people to make the world a better place. We also talked about how not recognizing their own privilege makes it difficult for men to make the world a better place.
Angela is the moderator.
Actually, the reason we're doing the next meeting so soon is because it's a follow-up topic. We talked about privilege this week, and how not recognizing the privilege of being the race in power makes it difficult for white people to make the world a better place. We also talked about how not recognizing their own privilege makes it difficult for men to make the world a better place.
How does culture make us who we are?
I've been doing some reading on privilege and racism, and what the cultural markers of being white are. I think that these articles could form the basis for an interesting discussion on how culture works to form individuals in society. It would be interesting to translate these ideas from an American context to a Taiwanese context.
Links below:
White Supremacy Culture
This is a list of characteristics of white supremacy culture that show up in our organizations. Culture is powerful precisely because it is so present and at the same time so very difficult to name or identify. The characteristics listed below are damaging because they are used as norms and standards without being pro-actively named or chosen by the group. They are damaging because they promote white supremacy thinking. Because we all live in a white supremacy culture, these characteristics show up in the attitudes and behaviors of all of us -- people of color and white people. Therefore, these attitudes and behaviors can show up in any group or organization, whether it is white-led or predominantly white or people of color-led or predominantly people of color.
Social class quiz
Do you have privilege? Several quizzes to help you understand your social class.
www.antiracistparent.com
Raising children to be aware of their white privilege is more than making them aware that there are other races in the world. It requires being a different kind of white person.
Links below:
White Supremacy Culture
This is a list of characteristics of white supremacy culture that show up in our organizations. Culture is powerful precisely because it is so present and at the same time so very difficult to name or identify. The characteristics listed below are damaging because they are used as norms and standards without being pro-actively named or chosen by the group. They are damaging because they promote white supremacy thinking. Because we all live in a white supremacy culture, these characteristics show up in the attitudes and behaviors of all of us -- people of color and white people. Therefore, these attitudes and behaviors can show up in any group or organization, whether it is white-led or predominantly white or people of color-led or predominantly people of color.
Social class quiz
Do you have privilege? Several quizzes to help you understand your social class.
www.antiracistparent.com
Raising children to be aware of their white privilege is more than making them aware that there are other races in the world. It requires being a different kind of white person.
Vonnegut in Charge
Discussion Question:
From THE NATION:
If you were president [either of Taiwan or the US], what do you think would be the most important things to take care of, and how would you do it?
Ever concerned with raising the level of political discourse in this country, we asked novelist Kurt Vonnegut to compose an acceptance speech for Michael Dukakis. Of course, writers have contributed to presidential oratory in the past, but their efforts were lost in the revision-by-committee process. Here's the real thing, unfiltered and undiluted.
I am here to serve the people of the United States of America -- all of them, in all ways which are lawful.
I will not now speak of my humbleness. It has been said with some truth, I suppose, that almost anyone can grow up to be President. I have to add, ''But surely not an humble child.'' The Presidency is simultaneously a pinnacle of power and of vanity, and God help us all.
An aspect of my vanity, which seems to have found favor with a majority of those who chose to vote, is my belief that, with the help of the fourth branch of government mentioned in our Constitution, ''We the people,'' I can do a lot to help the United States of America become the United States of America--at last, at last.
The echo of Martin Luther King in my words is intentional when I say ''at last, at last.''
It will do us no harm today, as it has surely done no harm to other nations I need not name, to acknowledge a past soiled with atrocities, including, in our case, slavery and genocide, and the treatment of women of whatever race under law as though they were not citizens but property. Let us celebrate how far we have come from such bad old days in so short a time, and measure how far we have yet to go.
What better measurement might we use for progress made and progress yet to come than the health and happiness and wisdom and safety of all our people? And make no mistake about it: This nation is the most astonishing and admirable experiment in pluralistic democracy in history. Because of our wealth, the fairness of our Bill of Rights and the openness of our long borders, every conceivable sort of human being is now an American.
We are the world.
There is much in the recent past I would undo, if I could, especially our overwhelming national debt, whose undoing will be slow and painful. I will try to find out what good things, if any, we bought with all that money, borrowed mostly from foreigners. I will report back to you, whose children and grandchildren must pay it back with interest. I will be surprised, as I am sure most of you will be, too, if I find many purchases our descendants might thank us for.
With your encouragement, and with the cooperation of your elected representatives, I will attempt, after listening to the best-informed advisers I can find, to give future generations reasons to think well of us after all. There you have it, the principal mission of my administration: to create and bequeath to the future a decent habitat for all, free of poisons, free of hunger, free of ignorance, free of hate.
Too much, too much?
Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?
Those are the words of Robert Browning, of course. I can put it a lot less elegantly, if you like:
Company's coming! Let's clean up this mess.
Many of the poisons in the water and the air and the topsoil are new. One which can sicken our spirit is ancient, and only since World War II has this country begun to fight it with any seriousness: the idea that females and persons of color are second-class citizens. That poison would love to make a great big comeback, to take its lethal place alongside nerve gas and radioactive wastes and PCBs and crack, and DDT and Agent Orange and the AIDS virus, and on and on.
Not while I'm President. In the words of Patrick Henry:
If this be treason, make the most of it.
Am I proposing a redistribution of wealth? You bet, since the wealth is being redistributed in any case, and often most crazily, and against the national interest. Am I proposing that we tax and tax and spend and spend? Yes, I am. Virtually every transaction is being skimmed already, and some private persons have done this at such confiscatory rates as to become as rich as smaller sovereign nations in a few years' time. And they spend and spend. On what? On what?
Ah, me.
Am I proposing an enormous public works program? How else might we describe our military-industrial complex, so mistrusted by that great Republican, General of the Armies Dwight David Eisenhower, when he himself became our President? With your encouragement I want to take much of the money now going into that public works program, and invest it instead in the arts of peace, the noblest of which are public health and education.
Who says otherwise? And why?
Company's coming.
I thank you for your attention.
I am here to serve the people of the United States of America -- all of them, in all ways which are lawful.
I will not now speak of my humbleness. It has been said with some truth, I suppose, that almost anyone can grow up to be President. I have to add, ''But surely not an humble child.'' The Presidency is simultaneously a pinnacle of power and of vanity, and God help us all.
An aspect of my vanity, which seems to have found favor with a majority of those who chose to vote, is my belief that, with the help of the fourth branch of government mentioned in our Constitution, ''We the people,'' I can do a lot to help the United States of America become the United States of America--at last, at last.
The echo of Martin Luther King in my words is intentional when I say ''at last, at last.''
It will do us no harm today, as it has surely done no harm to other nations I need not name, to acknowledge a past soiled with atrocities, including, in our case, slavery and genocide, and the treatment of women of whatever race under law as though they were not citizens but property. Let us celebrate how far we have come from such bad old days in so short a time, and measure how far we have yet to go.
What better measurement might we use for progress made and progress yet to come than the health and happiness and wisdom and safety of all our people? And make no mistake about it: This nation is the most astonishing and admirable experiment in pluralistic democracy in history. Because of our wealth, the fairness of our Bill of Rights and the openness of our long borders, every conceivable sort of human being is now an American.
We are the world.
There is much in the recent past I would undo, if I could, especially our overwhelming national debt, whose undoing will be slow and painful. I will try to find out what good things, if any, we bought with all that money, borrowed mostly from foreigners. I will report back to you, whose children and grandchildren must pay it back with interest. I will be surprised, as I am sure most of you will be, too, if I find many purchases our descendants might thank us for.
With your encouragement, and with the cooperation of your elected representatives, I will attempt, after listening to the best-informed advisers I can find, to give future generations reasons to think well of us after all. There you have it, the principal mission of my administration: to create and bequeath to the future a decent habitat for all, free of poisons, free of hunger, free of ignorance, free of hate.
Too much, too much?
Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?
Those are the words of Robert Browning, of course. I can put it a lot less elegantly, if you like:
Company's coming! Let's clean up this mess.
Many of the poisons in the water and the air and the topsoil are new. One which can sicken our spirit is ancient, and only since World War II has this country begun to fight it with any seriousness: the idea that females and persons of color are second-class citizens. That poison would love to make a great big comeback, to take its lethal place alongside nerve gas and radioactive wastes and PCBs and crack, and DDT and Agent Orange and the AIDS virus, and on and on.
Not while I'm President. In the words of Patrick Henry:
If this be treason, make the most of it.
Am I proposing a redistribution of wealth? You bet, since the wealth is being redistributed in any case, and often most crazily, and against the national interest. Am I proposing that we tax and tax and spend and spend? Yes, I am. Virtually every transaction is being skimmed already, and some private persons have done this at such confiscatory rates as to become as rich as smaller sovereign nations in a few years' time. And they spend and spend. On what? On what?
Ah, me.
Am I proposing an enormous public works program? How else might we describe our military-industrial complex, so mistrusted by that great Republican, General of the Armies Dwight David Eisenhower, when he himself became our President? With your encouragement I want to take much of the money now going into that public works program, and invest it instead in the arts of peace, the noblest of which are public health and education.
Who says otherwise? And why?
Company's coming.
I thank you for your attention.
Taipei Discussion Transcript: Vonnegut
Participants: Maggie, Teresa, Fanny, Mary, Angela
If you were the president or the leader of Taiwan or the world or any territory or the universe or a solar system, or whatever, what do you think would be the most important things to take care of, and how would you do it? So: that’s a broad question, and it should engender some interesting answers, which I think in the form of an outline and some illuminating detail, might be a useful format.
Anyone? Anyone? … Bueller?
If I were a president in Taiwan, there are two things I would like to do first. The first one would be to establish public transport system around the whole Taiwan landscape. Because this policy can cause two helpful effects for Taiwan. The first one is to reduce the oil use, and the second one can develop the rural, the economy and rise the living standard of the small town in rural area. And my second policy is to improve our education. Focusing most on law and money education, among other things, to teach our children respecting themselves and others. I think education is the cornerstone of a country. That’s my policy if I were a president of Taiwan.
So how’s my—
Yeah, if you want , you can critique—
You say, you emphasize on education—
Yeah,
--especially on law?
Yes, in particular and respect children respect themselves a lot. In my opinion, most criminals in our society is because people don’t respect themselves and others. Don’t respect the value of their life.
Myself, I think that school is not going to do this as well as at home, but you have to start somewhere.
Fanny, why do you say law? Why law?
Because I think in Taiwan, Taiwan people seldom obey the law. And that cause a lot of criminals and problems. In addition, most people almost in the bottom of the society, they have no knowledge of law.
Of their rights, maybe?
Yes, and so they don’t know how to protect themselves. For instance when they have no idea in this case, they should or can do something to protect themselves. But rich people have money to hire lawyers, or people with higher levels of education have knowledge of laws, they often know how to protect themselves.
So you mean if you were president, then how would you do of the people, they obey the people—
How you would make people follow the laws?
You say, they don’t follow the law, so if you were president, what would you do to make this kind of people follow the law?
Massive adult education classes? Culture Class for all! About rights and responsibilities? Free? Compulsory? But you’d have to teach the teachers first.
Put heavy punishments.
Don’t we already have that?
No?
The death penalty? That’s not heavy? The problem is, it’s tricky—like you said, people don’t know their rights? Then what do the punishments mean?
Okay, right, so we have to educate people first, the reason why they should obey the rule. Then the third step, if people don’t follow the rules, they will be punished very heavily. Then people will know they should comply.
Okay, so are there any more questions for candidate Fanny?
Just one more question. —
Hee! You sound like a reporter!
—Why do you say ‘law and money’?
Because in recent years, there are so many issues related to complex financial products, and many people, they borrow much more than they have earned, eventually ending up in bankruptcy, and also cause a lot of social problems. They have no choice but ending their lives, their children have no money to finish their education. I think it’s a big problem.
Okay, so are their any more questions for candidate Fanny?
You know I’m very nervous, it’s like I’m a real candidate.
You would be good president!
Does someone else want to be the candidate now? It’s a little bit boring, just one candidate?
We can’t have an election with just one!
Yeah, Taiwan need more candidates.
Okay, if I was the president of Taiwan, I think I have similar. Like economic issues, that people can find a way to earn money for them. Like, or they can find, they can have some organization help them to develop their, like, ability to support themselves, even though they are adult, and that would be a good thing to do.
So job training? Or more than that?
Actually help them to find what they are really good at. Education too. Not just focus on certain areas, but what they are interested in and can make money from. Give them more channel about things they can do, without worrying about ‘now’, not having a financial problem or something
So if you were president you would build a channel for everyone in Taiwan to do whatever they want to do, and without worrying financial problems.
Hopefully!
So, how would you do?
I don’t know.
Well speculate, throw out some ideas, you’re not really a candidate here.
Okay, how about internet. Lots of people don't know how to use the internet. So free lesson, or free education for something, the gvt covers classes they need. But I don’t know where the money comes from!
Well, the Republicans in the US don’t seem to worry much about that either, so I don’t see why that’s a problem.
I just have one suggestion, you can establish a platform, a sharing platform, where people who want to learn certain skills can swap their own skills to others.
That is brilliant!
For instance, I’m good at analysis, you’re good at cooking, we can swap in the platform without paying fees. Because if you provide a totally free channel, that would increase the, that would need more tax, and tax coming from people, and that would be a big burden of the whole country.
But it’s better than paying for weapons?
Okay, are there any other questions for Candidate Mary?
How about a third candidate, Teresa?
I think the most important would be to let my people to have a healthy life, and health and happiness and safety life. Then how do I help them to get to the end? My action, my purpose, the first is, I will invite the other countries, the other foreigner private company to come to Taiwan to invest in Taiwan. The invested item is no, no…
No limit?
No…every industry is okay, if they want to invest in Taiwan. If they want to invest, then they will hire our people. When they hire the Taiwanese, then we can get more salary. If the people get more salary, then they can have a good life than before. Then the gvt has the…can get some tax. So the circle is the …the first things will let our people have a good life.
And the second action is, I will reduce the foreign labor come to Taiwan.
Restrict.
Yes, restrict the foreign laborers, like the southeastern countries, like the Philippine, Myanmar, Vietnam, Indonesia. These kind of countries people, they come to Taiwan to work. I know their salary is cheaper than our people, but they will rob our people ‘s job. I know why the company, they like to hire the foreign laborers. But if we can restrict the foreign laborers, then maybe our peoples can get more job than before. This is if I were a president, these are the first two actions I would take. I wish I were the president right now. But it’s difficult, especially restrict the foreign laborers.
But how about security? You mentioned you want to develop a healthy and happy and …
Safety…yes…security? I’m not sure.
What do you mean by security? You mean int’l security or do you mean reduce the crime rates?
Um, maybe when I invited the private company to invest to Taiwan, maybe there has some security problem. But I think I can control it, because what’s kind of industry come to Taiwan, we can evaluate it before, so if it is a good industry for Taiwan, then I will let them come to here. If it is violate the environment, or pollute our air or water, then I will not let them come to Taiwan to invest, even it can give my people has a good life and get more job. But it will hurt people’s life, so I think the gvt will not let it come. For the security, as you just said, I think after the gvt gets the tax, then we have enough money to hire people to come to be a policeman or they would like to be army, to protect our society. So, and the other action is, security, we need to teach our people, just like you say, give them more education, but I know right now, most Taiwanese people, we have a good level of education. But why some people, they violate the law, because our, we can’t enforce the law. If we can do it like Singapore, I think most of the people, they will follow the law. They will not disobey it. I saw some of Taiwanese people, they go to America. They follow the traffic rule. They know how to drive. Even though no person cross the street, they follow the traffic rule. But in Taiwan they cross the street where they like. But compared to Taiwan and America, they have different rules to follow. Because the American criminal system quickly to punish the people. But in Taiwan, sometimes we didn’t do it.
But America also has more than 1 percent of their population in jail, too, so I’m not certain that’s the best solution.
I think I prefer the Singapore system. Because I think Taiwan’s law is not very strict, so I think maybe we could create more hard and more heavy law to apply.
You know, everyone in Taiwan talks about it, but they don’t really want it. Would you personally want to live in Singapore?
No, it’s too heavy.
See? You don’t want it!
Yeah, but it’s effective!
But it’s important to take the law to important things. Even they see someone violating the law, someone in Taiwan will not say anything about it.
But that’s what’s nice about Taiwan, it’s live and let live, it’s what’s makes here such a nice place to live. Nobody interferes with what you want to do. Let me give you an example. I don’t know if I read this story on the internet, or if someone told me, but this is the story. A guy moved to Singapore, and got an apartment. He put plants on the walkway outside his front door, as you do, and put dishes under each plant to catch the water so that it wouldn’t run all over the place when he watered them, as you do, right? Okay, so a few days later, he gets a knock on the door. It’s a policeman, who told him its illegal in Singapore to put dishes under your plants, or to have any standing water, because it potentially breeds mosquitos. So he got a notice from the police, or maybe even a fine, I don’t remember. The notice or the fine is not really the point. The guy was really pissed off, and why? He was pissed off because he was like, his apartment was on like the 5th or 6th floor. The police wouldn’t have known about his plants without one of the neighbors telling him about it. He was pissed, because he was like, “Why didn’t my neighbors just come to me directly, or put a polite note on my door to let me know the situation? Why did they instead call the police? That’s so unfriendly!” What he felt betrayed about, I think, is that ‘authority’ was brought in to deal with a situation that just needed a little communication. It was like killing a mosquito with a brick, so to speak. It was un-neighborly and unfriendly, and left him angry with all the people who lived near him. That’s not the way to build community, but it is the way you build ruthless dictatorship—break people into vertical relationships with authority, instead of the horizontal relationships of community.
So there’s a lot that’s nice about Taiwan. I’m not saying that it’s always good, but everything good comes with some bad things, and some bad things come with good. But you have to be careful not to lose the important things. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater!
Angela, what would you do?
Well, I totally support the Vonnegut platform, and I would incorporate a lot of the fanny platform and some of the Mary. I really love the idea of educating everybody at once, including all the adults, into understanding, thinking about and applying their rights and responsibilities as citizens. I don’t support the Singapore platform at all, I’m sorry.
If you were the president or the leader of Taiwan or the world or any territory or the universe or a solar system, or whatever, what do you think would be the most important things to take care of, and how would you do it? So: that’s a broad question, and it should engender some interesting answers, which I think in the form of an outline and some illuminating detail, might be a useful format.
Anyone? Anyone? … Bueller?
If I were a president in Taiwan, there are two things I would like to do first. The first one would be to establish public transport system around the whole Taiwan landscape. Because this policy can cause two helpful effects for Taiwan. The first one is to reduce the oil use, and the second one can develop the rural, the economy and rise the living standard of the small town in rural area. And my second policy is to improve our education. Focusing most on law and money education, among other things, to teach our children respecting themselves and others. I think education is the cornerstone of a country. That’s my policy if I were a president of Taiwan.
So how’s my—
Yeah, if you want , you can critique—
You say, you emphasize on education—
Yeah,
--especially on law?
Yes, in particular and respect children respect themselves a lot. In my opinion, most criminals in our society is because people don’t respect themselves and others. Don’t respect the value of their life.
Myself, I think that school is not going to do this as well as at home, but you have to start somewhere.
Fanny, why do you say law? Why law?
Because I think in Taiwan, Taiwan people seldom obey the law. And that cause a lot of criminals and problems. In addition, most people almost in the bottom of the society, they have no knowledge of law.
Of their rights, maybe?
Yes, and so they don’t know how to protect themselves. For instance when they have no idea in this case, they should or can do something to protect themselves. But rich people have money to hire lawyers, or people with higher levels of education have knowledge of laws, they often know how to protect themselves.
So you mean if you were president, then how would you do of the people, they obey the people—
How you would make people follow the laws?
You say, they don’t follow the law, so if you were president, what would you do to make this kind of people follow the law?
Massive adult education classes? Culture Class for all! About rights and responsibilities? Free? Compulsory? But you’d have to teach the teachers first.
Put heavy punishments.
Don’t we already have that?
No?
The death penalty? That’s not heavy? The problem is, it’s tricky—like you said, people don’t know their rights? Then what do the punishments mean?
Okay, right, so we have to educate people first, the reason why they should obey the rule. Then the third step, if people don’t follow the rules, they will be punished very heavily. Then people will know they should comply.
Okay, so are there any more questions for candidate Fanny?
Just one more question. —
Hee! You sound like a reporter!
—Why do you say ‘law and money’?
Because in recent years, there are so many issues related to complex financial products, and many people, they borrow much more than they have earned, eventually ending up in bankruptcy, and also cause a lot of social problems. They have no choice but ending their lives, their children have no money to finish their education. I think it’s a big problem.
Okay, so are their any more questions for candidate Fanny?
You know I’m very nervous, it’s like I’m a real candidate.
You would be good president!
Does someone else want to be the candidate now? It’s a little bit boring, just one candidate?
We can’t have an election with just one!
Yeah, Taiwan need more candidates.
Okay, if I was the president of Taiwan, I think I have similar. Like economic issues, that people can find a way to earn money for them. Like, or they can find, they can have some organization help them to develop their, like, ability to support themselves, even though they are adult, and that would be a good thing to do.
So job training? Or more than that?
Actually help them to find what they are really good at. Education too. Not just focus on certain areas, but what they are interested in and can make money from. Give them more channel about things they can do, without worrying about ‘now’, not having a financial problem or something
So if you were president you would build a channel for everyone in Taiwan to do whatever they want to do, and without worrying financial problems.
Hopefully!
So, how would you do?
I don’t know.
Well speculate, throw out some ideas, you’re not really a candidate here.
Okay, how about internet. Lots of people don't know how to use the internet. So free lesson, or free education for something, the gvt covers classes they need. But I don’t know where the money comes from!
Well, the Republicans in the US don’t seem to worry much about that either, so I don’t see why that’s a problem.
I just have one suggestion, you can establish a platform, a sharing platform, where people who want to learn certain skills can swap their own skills to others.
That is brilliant!
For instance, I’m good at analysis, you’re good at cooking, we can swap in the platform without paying fees. Because if you provide a totally free channel, that would increase the, that would need more tax, and tax coming from people, and that would be a big burden of the whole country.
But it’s better than paying for weapons?
Okay, are there any other questions for Candidate Mary?
How about a third candidate, Teresa?
I think the most important would be to let my people to have a healthy life, and health and happiness and safety life. Then how do I help them to get to the end? My action, my purpose, the first is, I will invite the other countries, the other foreigner private company to come to Taiwan to invest in Taiwan. The invested item is no, no…
No limit?
No…every industry is okay, if they want to invest in Taiwan. If they want to invest, then they will hire our people. When they hire the Taiwanese, then we can get more salary. If the people get more salary, then they can have a good life than before. Then the gvt has the…can get some tax. So the circle is the …the first things will let our people have a good life.
And the second action is, I will reduce the foreign labor come to Taiwan.
Restrict.
Yes, restrict the foreign laborers, like the southeastern countries, like the Philippine, Myanmar, Vietnam, Indonesia. These kind of countries people, they come to Taiwan to work. I know their salary is cheaper than our people, but they will rob our people ‘s job. I know why the company, they like to hire the foreign laborers. But if we can restrict the foreign laborers, then maybe our peoples can get more job than before. This is if I were a president, these are the first two actions I would take. I wish I were the president right now. But it’s difficult, especially restrict the foreign laborers.
But how about security? You mentioned you want to develop a healthy and happy and …
Safety…yes…security? I’m not sure.
What do you mean by security? You mean int’l security or do you mean reduce the crime rates?
Um, maybe when I invited the private company to invest to Taiwan, maybe there has some security problem. But I think I can control it, because what’s kind of industry come to Taiwan, we can evaluate it before, so if it is a good industry for Taiwan, then I will let them come to here. If it is violate the environment, or pollute our air or water, then I will not let them come to Taiwan to invest, even it can give my people has a good life and get more job. But it will hurt people’s life, so I think the gvt will not let it come. For the security, as you just said, I think after the gvt gets the tax, then we have enough money to hire people to come to be a policeman or they would like to be army, to protect our society. So, and the other action is, security, we need to teach our people, just like you say, give them more education, but I know right now, most Taiwanese people, we have a good level of education. But why some people, they violate the law, because our, we can’t enforce the law. If we can do it like Singapore, I think most of the people, they will follow the law. They will not disobey it. I saw some of Taiwanese people, they go to America. They follow the traffic rule. They know how to drive. Even though no person cross the street, they follow the traffic rule. But in Taiwan they cross the street where they like. But compared to Taiwan and America, they have different rules to follow. Because the American criminal system quickly to punish the people. But in Taiwan, sometimes we didn’t do it.
But America also has more than 1 percent of their population in jail, too, so I’m not certain that’s the best solution.
I think I prefer the Singapore system. Because I think Taiwan’s law is not very strict, so I think maybe we could create more hard and more heavy law to apply.
You know, everyone in Taiwan talks about it, but they don’t really want it. Would you personally want to live in Singapore?
No, it’s too heavy.
See? You don’t want it!
Yeah, but it’s effective!
But it’s important to take the law to important things. Even they see someone violating the law, someone in Taiwan will not say anything about it.
But that’s what’s nice about Taiwan, it’s live and let live, it’s what’s makes here such a nice place to live. Nobody interferes with what you want to do. Let me give you an example. I don’t know if I read this story on the internet, or if someone told me, but this is the story. A guy moved to Singapore, and got an apartment. He put plants on the walkway outside his front door, as you do, and put dishes under each plant to catch the water so that it wouldn’t run all over the place when he watered them, as you do, right? Okay, so a few days later, he gets a knock on the door. It’s a policeman, who told him its illegal in Singapore to put dishes under your plants, or to have any standing water, because it potentially breeds mosquitos. So he got a notice from the police, or maybe even a fine, I don’t remember. The notice or the fine is not really the point. The guy was really pissed off, and why? He was pissed off because he was like, his apartment was on like the 5th or 6th floor. The police wouldn’t have known about his plants without one of the neighbors telling him about it. He was pissed, because he was like, “Why didn’t my neighbors just come to me directly, or put a polite note on my door to let me know the situation? Why did they instead call the police? That’s so unfriendly!” What he felt betrayed about, I think, is that ‘authority’ was brought in to deal with a situation that just needed a little communication. It was like killing a mosquito with a brick, so to speak. It was un-neighborly and unfriendly, and left him angry with all the people who lived near him. That’s not the way to build community, but it is the way you build ruthless dictatorship—break people into vertical relationships with authority, instead of the horizontal relationships of community.
So there’s a lot that’s nice about Taiwan. I’m not saying that it’s always good, but everything good comes with some bad things, and some bad things come with good. But you have to be careful not to lose the important things. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater!
Angela, what would you do?
Well, I totally support the Vonnegut platform, and I would incorporate a lot of the fanny platform and some of the Mary. I really love the idea of educating everybody at once, including all the adults, into understanding, thinking about and applying their rights and responsibilities as citizens. I don’t support the Singapore platform at all, I’m sorry.
Conversation: It’s better than television.
So, in a conversation about rethinkingourselves, the woman I was talking with said: “Well, I’m easily influenced.”
I thought about this.
I think the process goes like this: First you’re easily influenced, but then you read and listen some more, and then for awhile you declare that it’s all crap, and you don’t trust anything. But then you read some more, or listen some more, and then you start realizing, hey, you know, some of these things make sense to me, and they fit a pattern, and over time you start to realize what you truly believe in. And then you read and listen some more and refine your ideas, take some new ones on, throw out some that don’t fit anymore, and your opinions get clearer and better fitting. Wash, rinse, repeat.
And then there’s this thing called the Socratic method, which I understand to be basically a bunch of people sitting around talking and discussing something, and bouncing their ideas off each other and arguing with each other until new ideas are born. And if no new ideas are actually created, well, in the meantime a whole lot of information has been disseminated and chewed on and hopefully digested.
Conversation: the art of sharing ideas and figuring out new things together.
I thought about this.
I think the process goes like this: First you’re easily influenced, but then you read and listen some more, and then for awhile you declare that it’s all crap, and you don’t trust anything. But then you read some more, or listen some more, and then you start realizing, hey, you know, some of these things make sense to me, and they fit a pattern, and over time you start to realize what you truly believe in. And then you read and listen some more and refine your ideas, take some new ones on, throw out some that don’t fit anymore, and your opinions get clearer and better fitting. Wash, rinse, repeat.
And then there’s this thing called the Socratic method, which I understand to be basically a bunch of people sitting around talking and discussing something, and bouncing their ideas off each other and arguing with each other until new ideas are born. And if no new ideas are actually created, well, in the meantime a whole lot of information has been disseminated and chewed on and hopefully digested.
Conversation: the art of sharing ideas and figuring out new things together.
Knowing What's Nice
Questions to Ponder:
1. How do you know enough to appreciate where you are??
2. How do you know when you have enough money?
3. How do you know when to be satisfied with what you have?
4. How do you know enough to know when you’re happy?
Discussion Question:
1. How do you know enough to appreciate where you are??
2. How do you know when you have enough money?
3. How do you know when to be satisfied with what you have?
4. How do you know enough to know when you’re happy?
Discussion Question:
What’s the difference between desire and expectation?
Article:
Kurt Vonnegut Archives: Knowing What's NiceTaipei Discussion Transcript: Knowing What's Nice
Participants Discussion Transcript: Mary, Fanny, Riley, Flora, Angela
I read a book and it helped me think about these questions very practically, its about a guy who only wants to work four hours a week. And he has very vivid description about our sense of security about work, but he thinks this is ridiculous. He says you work 56 hours a week to get promoted to work more hours a week. And the other ridiculous example about your career dreams is, you expect to go travel and do every thing you want to do after retirement. And now you waste a lot of time with colleagues. Actually you don’t do much, you just forward some email, and chat on unimportant topics with your colleagues, and so this is what makes your life meaningful. So he tried to do what he want, so he went to travel in Europe, and right away, in the next month. And it evokes a thought for me, we put what dreams you have, what you want, at some untouchable point, but we see the path we took the work we do right now as a cost to exchange for future happiness. But in fact it’s untouchable to us.
It’s really easy to talk about to appreciate what we are right now, but we are unconscious of that most of the time. It’s easy to say we’re satisfied. But take me as an example, we’re unconscious of real happiness, and we dare not do what makes us really happy at that moment. It’s like a circle, keep planning, keep planning, but actually you wasting time, enforce the plan is not really the right direction.
Like maybe we’re just always planning for the future.
But maybe the plan is wrong, we just enjoy the planning. For the sense of security. So you follow the conventional steps, and it’s questionable you could achieve your happiness by this kinds of way. So about this question, I’m thinking right now, I’m thinking there’s no answer actually. We keep pursuing the answer what makes us happy, but I don’t think there’s an answer.
But you don’t think there’s a difference between desire and expectation?
Mmm.
I just found it’s easier for most people to say they are unhappy, but it’s harder for people to say they are happy. Because most people do not know exactly what they really want, and who they really are, so they don’t know whether they are, if they are really happy or not. They just know, I’m not happy now. But they have no idea what will make them happy.
So do you think there’s a difference between desire and expectation?
I just think expectation is what others or myself want to achieve, and desire is I just want to get, I want to do, I just want to achieve, regardless of what others think. Like, I expect myself to be a professional person, but maybe that’s because I hope others see me like this.
So it’s more a social thing.
Maybe.
As her definition expectation is interpreted more socially, and—
And desire is more—personal.
You know, I had this conversation with a 1-1 student of mine. He’s pretty rich, and he said that he was so grateful that he was well off. He’s like, when he desires something, no matter what, he can just get it. He said, if he didn’t have money, his desires would turn into expectation, which is really like a state of loss. He’s like, if I want a Rolex Oyster automatically winding watch or whatever, if the desire enters his head, he can just act on it, and there’s joy in that. To fulfill your desire—that’s joy. If he didn’t have the money, he’d maybe have to save for it, then that desire would become the expectation of fulfillment at some point in the future, and then, basically, it would be all about NOT having the watch, and not fulfilling his desire, and so the joy would be lost. He would be in a state of loss.
So it’s because of this conversation, because of what he said, that I proposed this question for discussion today. I never though about this before, and I thought it would be interesting to see what y’all said. So what you just said about the planning, I think this is related somehow to what my student was saying, but I don’t see it yet.
Okay, so the watch, somehow in the process, not having the watch is a kind of energy, for keeping your life going, but when you get the watch, you lose the energy, you don’t have anything to push you to go further.
Wow, that goes with the planning then.
That’s why people plan and don’t get, because they’re afraid of what happens when they get.
So they start up another plan so they—
So it’s like, what’s the destination of your whole plan?
Like recently, we had some promotion, and lots of personnel events, some people were promoted, and some people failed in the competition. Some people, when they’re manager, they expect to be vice president, and so on. Their whole life. If you’re their president, you’ll have struggled for 15 or 20 years. Most people, if you take this company life for example, all the life is just planning for this stage. But what’s the meaning, the eternal meaning for you? You spent 2 years promoted to president, but what’s the value of that?
But from my point of view, planning from every stage of life, not totally a bad thing. It’s not a bad source of energy. What matters is the contents you plan for. For example, you can plan for a travel, for next year, and so you start to save money, and serve on the internet to get information, and then when you achieve the goal, you can start to plan for another plan, like maybe publish a book for the trip, something like, I mean the, I think planning is a kind of process to help us to find the meaning of our life. When we start to plan something, we start to think about our goal, our desires, and our expectation, whatever, and then to organize the every resources we can get. I think, planning also can be a good thing, but—
So it’s a big difference for that, because you said planning for travel or whatever is sort of a personal affair, but when planning put in the context of social, society, somehow you cannot plan by yourself. You need to plan under the instructions of the society, most of the people regard, they have consensus on the principle, and the range is restricted, so it’s not your plan, so it’s decided by society. And then your, I think somehow your autonomy will be dismissed in this planning. If you just plan for travel, for dinner, sure, it’s quite free, you can achieve your desire, your innovation. But in society, even I obey my motivation, I cannot… I saw one of my colleague, she was promoted very fast, she became a senior manager at a very early age. From a social point of view, her planning very successful. But she live single, because she doesn’t have time to date, she has to spend the working hour. And she doesn’t have hobby, because she doesn’t have time for some entertainment. She sacrificed this for her position. She doesn’t get any, she didn’t attend her desire for some basic happiness for her life.
But she made her own decision. For when she decide to contribute her whole time to achieve her goal, I think she, I propose that she thought very clear, and she should take responsibility of her life. So if she choose by herself—
But seriously how much is it really her choice? Think about it, a man in her position wouldn’t have had to give up being married. I doubt she didn’t get married because she didn’t have time to date. I bet she didn’t because she knew she didn’t have time to take on the responsibilities of the expectations placed on women in a marriage, knew that she couldn’t do that and also further her career. You know, mostly for men, when they get married, it frees them up to concentrate on their career, because they don’t have to take care of cleaning laundry etc, because why? Because the woman is doing it. Women, including working women, are expected to do a disproportionate amount of home work. Besides the social pressure to have a baby for a family, all of that. It’s not the same as a man being married.
Maybe there are some results, unexpected, after her choice. Maybe she tried to assume, she thinks, okay, when I’m a manager, I’ll have more time money and power to fulfill her personal life. But when she gets to that position, the things don’t match her imagination. She could not expect, it’s like a game, when you go to certain situation, she cannot predict what the situation will be.
[slight pause]
So Riley, you’ve been really quiet.
I am on the same page with them, so—
In that case, if you were the woman she mentioned, what would you choose?
Um, if I’m rich, then I would go for my basic, what I really want, which is not work, in that woman’s situation. But if I’m not rich, then I would pursue my career, because you need to have enough money to maintain your present life. After that, you can start to do whatever you want. So if you want to do something, you really have to focus on work, which is making money, what I’m doing now.
Well for me, I made a vow in 2001 to only do work that also spiritually satisfies me. I’m not saying it’s got to be 100% or nothing, it’s just that the job has to allow me to grow personally, on some level, not just feed me. It’s got to support me and at least somewhat feed my soul. Of course I currently have the privilege of having a decent range of choice of jobs, but so, what I’m saying is, to the extent that I have a choice, I’m definitely going to choose something that lets me grow, not just take whatever makes me the most money quickest.
Flora just said that in the reality, maybe your friend cannot expect or control the feedback from society to her choice. I just want think maybe, that’s the major reason why we feel unhappy. Because after we make decision, the feedback of the situation not fit our expectation or desire, so then we feel unhappy.
Huh, you might have solved something for me. A friend of mine just bounces from job to job, is always changing jobs. Even when he’s negotiated himself into a good position, three months later he’ll say to his girlfriend, “Hey, there’s this job available in Hong Kong.” And it makes her want to scream, because she’s already moved around for him, and sacrificed a fairly well paying job so he could be in Taipei. So we were discussing this, but couldn’t come to any conclusion. But now that you said that, I realized: He doesn’t know how to develop where he’s at. He thinks you have to walk into a perfect situation, and when it isn’t, he just wants to give up on it. Whereas other people like look at where they are and try to develop the situation they’re in, and try to improve where they are currently, to make it what they want it to be.
And you know, the other, the case I mentioned, the colleague, right now she’s a senior manager. She sacrificed opportunity to organize a family, when but she want to get a better promotion, she was blocked by her sacrifice. She didn’t have a family. They don’t think a person, because it’s a bureaucracy, they think a person with a family is more stable. So for instance, if she gets angry, they think, “See?” And she lacks contacts, because people think about what kinds of contacts you have through your family. But if you’re a single person, you don’t have these family contacts. Like, if your father in law is in a certain business, or your husband is a diplomat. So it’s the rule of social games, but it’s hard to realize the rules unless you encounter that.
But I think it’s just an excuse to just not promote your colleague.
Yes, I think so too.
Because there’s another case, there’s a woman, she had a family, but she was not promoted because she had family. I think that’s the sex discrimination. Our gvt, the whole society, just don’t want to promote women, so they will find excuse as possible as they can to choose a man. I think so.
I think of another example, because previous, President Ma want to pick some ministers—the combination of ministers in his cabinet, he need to announce he is fair about gender, so he have to collect enough female ministers, no matter if they are capable or not. On that point, that list is really surprising.
Hey, about them ‘being capable or not’, it’s hard to get experience if you aren’t given the opportunity, don’t you think?
Hey, what about Tsai Ingwen? She’s single, right? And she was being considered to be the chairman of the DPP, and some bigwig in the party was like, a single woman is inappropriate? My girlfriend was so pissed off about that. She was finally still appointed, right?
Yes, and that guy was forced to apologise to her.
Aw, yeah!
Yes, first of all because women’s groups protested about that. Second, her father is pretty powerful. But Lu Shioulien, [the previous Vice President of Taiwan] she didn’t get that kind of apology.
But she doesn’t have a powerful relative.
Yeah, but so she’s even more amazing, because she managed to be the Vice President of the country. And she’s not married, either right? She still could be so powerful, have the kind of backing to be the second-most powerful position in the gvt.
I read a book and it helped me think about these questions very practically, its about a guy who only wants to work four hours a week. And he has very vivid description about our sense of security about work, but he thinks this is ridiculous. He says you work 56 hours a week to get promoted to work more hours a week. And the other ridiculous example about your career dreams is, you expect to go travel and do every thing you want to do after retirement. And now you waste a lot of time with colleagues. Actually you don’t do much, you just forward some email, and chat on unimportant topics with your colleagues, and so this is what makes your life meaningful. So he tried to do what he want, so he went to travel in Europe, and right away, in the next month. And it evokes a thought for me, we put what dreams you have, what you want, at some untouchable point, but we see the path we took the work we do right now as a cost to exchange for future happiness. But in fact it’s untouchable to us.
It’s really easy to talk about to appreciate what we are right now, but we are unconscious of that most of the time. It’s easy to say we’re satisfied. But take me as an example, we’re unconscious of real happiness, and we dare not do what makes us really happy at that moment. It’s like a circle, keep planning, keep planning, but actually you wasting time, enforce the plan is not really the right direction.
Like maybe we’re just always planning for the future.
But maybe the plan is wrong, we just enjoy the planning. For the sense of security. So you follow the conventional steps, and it’s questionable you could achieve your happiness by this kinds of way. So about this question, I’m thinking right now, I’m thinking there’s no answer actually. We keep pursuing the answer what makes us happy, but I don’t think there’s an answer.
But you don’t think there’s a difference between desire and expectation?
Mmm.
I just found it’s easier for most people to say they are unhappy, but it’s harder for people to say they are happy. Because most people do not know exactly what they really want, and who they really are, so they don’t know whether they are, if they are really happy or not. They just know, I’m not happy now. But they have no idea what will make them happy.
So do you think there’s a difference between desire and expectation?
I just think expectation is what others or myself want to achieve, and desire is I just want to get, I want to do, I just want to achieve, regardless of what others think. Like, I expect myself to be a professional person, but maybe that’s because I hope others see me like this.
So it’s more a social thing.
Maybe.
As her definition expectation is interpreted more socially, and—
And desire is more—personal.
You know, I had this conversation with a 1-1 student of mine. He’s pretty rich, and he said that he was so grateful that he was well off. He’s like, when he desires something, no matter what, he can just get it. He said, if he didn’t have money, his desires would turn into expectation, which is really like a state of loss. He’s like, if I want a Rolex Oyster automatically winding watch or whatever, if the desire enters his head, he can just act on it, and there’s joy in that. To fulfill your desire—that’s joy. If he didn’t have the money, he’d maybe have to save for it, then that desire would become the expectation of fulfillment at some point in the future, and then, basically, it would be all about NOT having the watch, and not fulfilling his desire, and so the joy would be lost. He would be in a state of loss.
So it’s because of this conversation, because of what he said, that I proposed this question for discussion today. I never though about this before, and I thought it would be interesting to see what y’all said. So what you just said about the planning, I think this is related somehow to what my student was saying, but I don’t see it yet.
Okay, so the watch, somehow in the process, not having the watch is a kind of energy, for keeping your life going, but when you get the watch, you lose the energy, you don’t have anything to push you to go further.
Wow, that goes with the planning then.
That’s why people plan and don’t get, because they’re afraid of what happens when they get.
So they start up another plan so they—
So it’s like, what’s the destination of your whole plan?
Like recently, we had some promotion, and lots of personnel events, some people were promoted, and some people failed in the competition. Some people, when they’re manager, they expect to be vice president, and so on. Their whole life. If you’re their president, you’ll have struggled for 15 or 20 years. Most people, if you take this company life for example, all the life is just planning for this stage. But what’s the meaning, the eternal meaning for you? You spent 2 years promoted to president, but what’s the value of that?
But from my point of view, planning from every stage of life, not totally a bad thing. It’s not a bad source of energy. What matters is the contents you plan for. For example, you can plan for a travel, for next year, and so you start to save money, and serve on the internet to get information, and then when you achieve the goal, you can start to plan for another plan, like maybe publish a book for the trip, something like, I mean the, I think planning is a kind of process to help us to find the meaning of our life. When we start to plan something, we start to think about our goal, our desires, and our expectation, whatever, and then to organize the every resources we can get. I think, planning also can be a good thing, but—
So it’s a big difference for that, because you said planning for travel or whatever is sort of a personal affair, but when planning put in the context of social, society, somehow you cannot plan by yourself. You need to plan under the instructions of the society, most of the people regard, they have consensus on the principle, and the range is restricted, so it’s not your plan, so it’s decided by society. And then your, I think somehow your autonomy will be dismissed in this planning. If you just plan for travel, for dinner, sure, it’s quite free, you can achieve your desire, your innovation. But in society, even I obey my motivation, I cannot… I saw one of my colleague, she was promoted very fast, she became a senior manager at a very early age. From a social point of view, her planning very successful. But she live single, because she doesn’t have time to date, she has to spend the working hour. And she doesn’t have hobby, because she doesn’t have time for some entertainment. She sacrificed this for her position. She doesn’t get any, she didn’t attend her desire for some basic happiness for her life.
But she made her own decision. For when she decide to contribute her whole time to achieve her goal, I think she, I propose that she thought very clear, and she should take responsibility of her life. So if she choose by herself—
But seriously how much is it really her choice? Think about it, a man in her position wouldn’t have had to give up being married. I doubt she didn’t get married because she didn’t have time to date. I bet she didn’t because she knew she didn’t have time to take on the responsibilities of the expectations placed on women in a marriage, knew that she couldn’t do that and also further her career. You know, mostly for men, when they get married, it frees them up to concentrate on their career, because they don’t have to take care of cleaning laundry etc, because why? Because the woman is doing it. Women, including working women, are expected to do a disproportionate amount of home work. Besides the social pressure to have a baby for a family, all of that. It’s not the same as a man being married.
Maybe there are some results, unexpected, after her choice. Maybe she tried to assume, she thinks, okay, when I’m a manager, I’ll have more time money and power to fulfill her personal life. But when she gets to that position, the things don’t match her imagination. She could not expect, it’s like a game, when you go to certain situation, she cannot predict what the situation will be.
[slight pause]
So Riley, you’ve been really quiet.
I am on the same page with them, so—
In that case, if you were the woman she mentioned, what would you choose?
Um, if I’m rich, then I would go for my basic, what I really want, which is not work, in that woman’s situation. But if I’m not rich, then I would pursue my career, because you need to have enough money to maintain your present life. After that, you can start to do whatever you want. So if you want to do something, you really have to focus on work, which is making money, what I’m doing now.
Well for me, I made a vow in 2001 to only do work that also spiritually satisfies me. I’m not saying it’s got to be 100% or nothing, it’s just that the job has to allow me to grow personally, on some level, not just feed me. It’s got to support me and at least somewhat feed my soul. Of course I currently have the privilege of having a decent range of choice of jobs, but so, what I’m saying is, to the extent that I have a choice, I’m definitely going to choose something that lets me grow, not just take whatever makes me the most money quickest.
Flora just said that in the reality, maybe your friend cannot expect or control the feedback from society to her choice. I just want think maybe, that’s the major reason why we feel unhappy. Because after we make decision, the feedback of the situation not fit our expectation or desire, so then we feel unhappy.
Huh, you might have solved something for me. A friend of mine just bounces from job to job, is always changing jobs. Even when he’s negotiated himself into a good position, three months later he’ll say to his girlfriend, “Hey, there’s this job available in Hong Kong.” And it makes her want to scream, because she’s already moved around for him, and sacrificed a fairly well paying job so he could be in Taipei. So we were discussing this, but couldn’t come to any conclusion. But now that you said that, I realized: He doesn’t know how to develop where he’s at. He thinks you have to walk into a perfect situation, and when it isn’t, he just wants to give up on it. Whereas other people like look at where they are and try to develop the situation they’re in, and try to improve where they are currently, to make it what they want it to be.
And you know, the other, the case I mentioned, the colleague, right now she’s a senior manager. She sacrificed opportunity to organize a family, when but she want to get a better promotion, she was blocked by her sacrifice. She didn’t have a family. They don’t think a person, because it’s a bureaucracy, they think a person with a family is more stable. So for instance, if she gets angry, they think, “See?” And she lacks contacts, because people think about what kinds of contacts you have through your family. But if you’re a single person, you don’t have these family contacts. Like, if your father in law is in a certain business, or your husband is a diplomat. So it’s the rule of social games, but it’s hard to realize the rules unless you encounter that.
But I think it’s just an excuse to just not promote your colleague.
Yes, I think so too.
Because there’s another case, there’s a woman, she had a family, but she was not promoted because she had family. I think that’s the sex discrimination. Our gvt, the whole society, just don’t want to promote women, so they will find excuse as possible as they can to choose a man. I think so.
I think of another example, because previous, President Ma want to pick some ministers—the combination of ministers in his cabinet, he need to announce he is fair about gender, so he have to collect enough female ministers, no matter if they are capable or not. On that point, that list is really surprising.
Hey, about them ‘being capable or not’, it’s hard to get experience if you aren’t given the opportunity, don’t you think?
Hey, what about Tsai Ingwen? She’s single, right? And she was being considered to be the chairman of the DPP, and some bigwig in the party was like, a single woman is inappropriate? My girlfriend was so pissed off about that. She was finally still appointed, right?
Yes, and that guy was forced to apologise to her.
Aw, yeah!
Yes, first of all because women’s groups protested about that. Second, her father is pretty powerful. But Lu Shioulien, [the previous Vice President of Taiwan] she didn’t get that kind of apology.
But she doesn’t have a powerful relative.
Yeah, but so she’s even more amazing, because she managed to be the Vice President of the country. And she’s not married, either right? She still could be so powerful, have the kind of backing to be the second-most powerful position in the gvt.
Hsinchu Discussion Transcript: Knowing What's Nice
Participants: Peter W, Amenda, Kevin, Angela
I think desire is maybe the things you don’t need, and you don’t want, but expectation is your dreams and your wish you want to fulfill it, and the picture you want to go for. And desire is the things you want but don’t need.
Expectation is more positive, it’s something you want to achieve. But desire is more, for me, more unrealistic, it’s more like a dream that cannot true. It’s my secret, but it’s a dream that cannot come true. Maybe it’s illegal. More unrealistic. But expectation is more practical. You go to it step by step, you expect it. But desire, you don’t expect it. You don’t really have to make this come true, because it’s just desire. Maybe it’s illegal.
I’m afraid to ask…
[laughter]
Like a second wife, maybe you want a second wife, but that’s just desire.
But I would say today’s topic is related to the topic we discussed last week.
How’s it related?
Because they say, do you know enough, it looks like, how could I say, do you know enough when you are happy, or you have enough, I would say it really depends on, you have different desire, or different extra need. But as long as you know how to put that intangible thing in a real framework, then you can see if you can achieve or not. The first one, “How do you know enough to appreciate where you are??”… this one I don’t know how to say, like every day, you wake up its different, like a new house or something. For the second one, “How do you know when you have enough money?” that’s a lot more clear. You know when you’ll go bankrupt. But number three, “How do you know when to be satisfied with what you have?” What do you mean ‘when’?
The point at which you’re satisfied.
Some signal?
Yeah, how do you know?
When you feel comfortable, when you feel free. Some CEO said the major purpose of making money, or getting rich is that it provides more freedom for what you want, what to do, how to achieve.
Right, because money gives you the right to choose.
It’s true. What you want, where to go.
Right—it’s the budget, if you don’t have it, you don’t even dare turn on the heater. Because I’m thinking, if you don’t have this—you need money—you don’t have it, you’re in a state of horror. If you have enough money, you’re free of this state of horror. So if you have money, you can do anything, if you don’t have money, you can’t do anything.
But if you have money, you can do a lot of things you can do when you don’t have money.
What’s ‘where you are’?
It’s like your status or situation. It’s not your physical location.
Okay, I try to compare the difference between desire and expectation. I want to explain desire from the—when we say I have some desire to do something, I think the idea should be initiated from our own mind, and I think, but expectation more often we use “expect”, this word, in a passive way. It means the, usually, we have something to expect, to achieve, is under somebody’s or external wishes, it means always our performance has some lack, between our own, desire or, and other people’s expectation. So most people, I think we work, we perform well following society, our family, friends, teachers, some rules they set. But often, what we have done the right way, is other’s expectation, didn’t follow our desire.
Yes, exactly!
So I think the, I say only we will feel happy or free, okay, following our internal desire. Often we cannot get the real happiness by dong some, try our best to fill other’s expectation. So, I think the major difference is, uh, desire is coming from our own mind, and can decide or monitor or control by yourself. But the expectation, I think sometimes we, it’s under, how to say, under some kind of pressure or some kind of, not the coming out of the free will, our free will. So, also we can say, desire, the scope is decided by ourselves, but sometime the scope of expectation is not decided by yourself, but by others around us.
So expectation is negative, in this characterization.
But I don’t think expectation is negative, I think it’s passive.
As an American, passive = bad, so passive is also a negative connotation for us. I know it’s not for Chinese and Taiwanese culture
So for a homosexual guy, they never fulfill their parents expectation, so they don’t say they’re gay in front of their parents. But it’s not natural—
What’s not natural?
For them, or for most of gays, they’re born homosexual, so not decided by themselves. So if we respect their desire of the sexual—even they are not fulfill the expectation of their parents or most people around her or him. So only you can get only real happiness follow his own desire.
That’s a very interesting point.
And now I know how to answer question 1 and 4. “How do you know enough to appreciate where you are?” and “How do you know enough to know when you’re happy?”
How?
If I can live in a state, up to my expectation, then I’m quite happy.
What is your expectation?
It depends on the state of my situation. Sometimes my desire is more unrealistic or unattainable. But if I can work up to expectation. So I can live up to second one, then I can be happy. So if I can live up to the level up my expectation, then I can be happy. My expectation is different from you, let’s say for, let’s say you want a score of 100, I just happy with 90. So I’m talking about my standard for myself.
So how about the people around you, do you have expectations for the people you’re close to, and how do you handle them?
It’s like respect, if you are respected. It’s not like you’re rich, but if you show up, you’re respected, that’s what I’m talking about. I cannot say high class, just that you’re respected.
Social standing. High social standing?
No not like that.
Middle class?
No, what I’m saying, respect, that’s the basic minimum standard.
Mmm, don’t quite understand. Do you guys get it?
Maybe, restate the question.
What I’m saying, I want respect from my friends, so I’m saying, minimum respect. I’m saying, like professional skills, or respect, it’s not those things, what I’m saying, maybe it’s because—
You’re saying you expect your friends to have integrity?
It’s part of that.
Does this have something to do with ‘face’?
You’re saying your friends want to be friends with you because you’re rich or your high position, are you saying that?
No, he’s saying the opposite.
No, you asked, “what I expect from my friends”, so I said ‘respect’.
It’s hard to talk about this, right?
I’m saying there could be many things that they respect you for, the point is, what you want from your friends is respect.
You expect to be respected by your friends, for whatever reason.
Yeah.
So what do *you* expect from the people around you?
So your question, we usually expect others around us to do something, so we feel good.
Yeah, I think so. But I don’t know…I think maybe a simple criteria is we don’t have the right to force the people around us to make us feel happy. Maybe they feel some uncomfortable.
Wow, this is exactly what my girlfriend was talking about the other day.
So the difference between desire and expectation, we live under other’s—you know unreasonable—inhuman expectation. So following the same logic, I don’t have the right to add some unnecessary pressure to my family, to my colleagues.
Wow, that’s saying a lot!
Everyone have the right to live, to perform, to maintain his relationship with your friends, your boss, your— So. So just like today’s topic, knowing what’s nice, I think, uh, yeah. We have to respect everyone has his own way to pursue happiness and choose, okay, physical and psychological life. I remember the article author emphasize the music right?
Yeah!
Very important! More important than god, right?
Well, he doesn’t believe in god!
So I don’t know about Americans—
Oh, yeah, Americans are really into music.
It’s a different culture.
[slight pause]
I have another idea about desire and expectation. Desire is like asking yourself what you want, then the goal is like expectation, and you fulfill it step by step, and maybe you get it, and maybe you don’t, but the result doesn’t matter. So I don’t agree with your friend. It’s how you go through it, how you experience, so you live right now.
How about expectation?
I say, you have desire, so you set it up as an expectation, so you make it happen, as your goal, so that’s the expectation.
I think desire is maybe the things you don’t need, and you don’t want, but expectation is your dreams and your wish you want to fulfill it, and the picture you want to go for. And desire is the things you want but don’t need.
Expectation is more positive, it’s something you want to achieve. But desire is more, for me, more unrealistic, it’s more like a dream that cannot true. It’s my secret, but it’s a dream that cannot come true. Maybe it’s illegal. More unrealistic. But expectation is more practical. You go to it step by step, you expect it. But desire, you don’t expect it. You don’t really have to make this come true, because it’s just desire. Maybe it’s illegal.
I’m afraid to ask…
[laughter]
Like a second wife, maybe you want a second wife, but that’s just desire.
But I would say today’s topic is related to the topic we discussed last week.
How’s it related?
Because they say, do you know enough, it looks like, how could I say, do you know enough when you are happy, or you have enough, I would say it really depends on, you have different desire, or different extra need. But as long as you know how to put that intangible thing in a real framework, then you can see if you can achieve or not. The first one, “How do you know enough to appreciate where you are??”… this one I don’t know how to say, like every day, you wake up its different, like a new house or something. For the second one, “How do you know when you have enough money?” that’s a lot more clear. You know when you’ll go bankrupt. But number three, “How do you know when to be satisfied with what you have?” What do you mean ‘when’?
The point at which you’re satisfied.
Some signal?
Yeah, how do you know?
When you feel comfortable, when you feel free. Some CEO said the major purpose of making money, or getting rich is that it provides more freedom for what you want, what to do, how to achieve.
Right, because money gives you the right to choose.
It’s true. What you want, where to go.
Right—it’s the budget, if you don’t have it, you don’t even dare turn on the heater. Because I’m thinking, if you don’t have this—you need money—you don’t have it, you’re in a state of horror. If you have enough money, you’re free of this state of horror. So if you have money, you can do anything, if you don’t have money, you can’t do anything.
But if you have money, you can do a lot of things you can do when you don’t have money.
What’s ‘where you are’?
It’s like your status or situation. It’s not your physical location.
Okay, I try to compare the difference between desire and expectation. I want to explain desire from the—when we say I have some desire to do something, I think the idea should be initiated from our own mind, and I think, but expectation more often we use “expect”, this word, in a passive way. It means the, usually, we have something to expect, to achieve, is under somebody’s or external wishes, it means always our performance has some lack, between our own, desire or, and other people’s expectation. So most people, I think we work, we perform well following society, our family, friends, teachers, some rules they set. But often, what we have done the right way, is other’s expectation, didn’t follow our desire.
Yes, exactly!
So I think the, I say only we will feel happy or free, okay, following our internal desire. Often we cannot get the real happiness by dong some, try our best to fill other’s expectation. So, I think the major difference is, uh, desire is coming from our own mind, and can decide or monitor or control by yourself. But the expectation, I think sometimes we, it’s under, how to say, under some kind of pressure or some kind of, not the coming out of the free will, our free will. So, also we can say, desire, the scope is decided by ourselves, but sometime the scope of expectation is not decided by yourself, but by others around us.
So expectation is negative, in this characterization.
But I don’t think expectation is negative, I think it’s passive.
As an American, passive = bad, so passive is also a negative connotation for us. I know it’s not for Chinese and Taiwanese culture
So for a homosexual guy, they never fulfill their parents expectation, so they don’t say they’re gay in front of their parents. But it’s not natural—
What’s not natural?
For them, or for most of gays, they’re born homosexual, so not decided by themselves. So if we respect their desire of the sexual—even they are not fulfill the expectation of their parents or most people around her or him. So only you can get only real happiness follow his own desire.
That’s a very interesting point.
And now I know how to answer question 1 and 4. “How do you know enough to appreciate where you are?” and “How do you know enough to know when you’re happy?”
How?
If I can live in a state, up to my expectation, then I’m quite happy.
What is your expectation?
It depends on the state of my situation. Sometimes my desire is more unrealistic or unattainable. But if I can work up to expectation. So I can live up to second one, then I can be happy. So if I can live up to the level up my expectation, then I can be happy. My expectation is different from you, let’s say for, let’s say you want a score of 100, I just happy with 90. So I’m talking about my standard for myself.
So how about the people around you, do you have expectations for the people you’re close to, and how do you handle them?
It’s like respect, if you are respected. It’s not like you’re rich, but if you show up, you’re respected, that’s what I’m talking about. I cannot say high class, just that you’re respected.
Social standing. High social standing?
No not like that.
Middle class?
No, what I’m saying, respect, that’s the basic minimum standard.
Mmm, don’t quite understand. Do you guys get it?
Maybe, restate the question.
What I’m saying, I want respect from my friends, so I’m saying, minimum respect. I’m saying, like professional skills, or respect, it’s not those things, what I’m saying, maybe it’s because—
You’re saying you expect your friends to have integrity?
It’s part of that.
Does this have something to do with ‘face’?
You’re saying your friends want to be friends with you because you’re rich or your high position, are you saying that?
No, he’s saying the opposite.
No, you asked, “what I expect from my friends”, so I said ‘respect’.
It’s hard to talk about this, right?
I’m saying there could be many things that they respect you for, the point is, what you want from your friends is respect.
You expect to be respected by your friends, for whatever reason.
Yeah.
So what do *you* expect from the people around you?
So your question, we usually expect others around us to do something, so we feel good.
Yeah, I think so. But I don’t know…I think maybe a simple criteria is we don’t have the right to force the people around us to make us feel happy. Maybe they feel some uncomfortable.
Wow, this is exactly what my girlfriend was talking about the other day.
So the difference between desire and expectation, we live under other’s—you know unreasonable—inhuman expectation. So following the same logic, I don’t have the right to add some unnecessary pressure to my family, to my colleagues.
Wow, that’s saying a lot!
Everyone have the right to live, to perform, to maintain his relationship with your friends, your boss, your— So. So just like today’s topic, knowing what’s nice, I think, uh, yeah. We have to respect everyone has his own way to pursue happiness and choose, okay, physical and psychological life. I remember the article author emphasize the music right?
Yeah!
Very important! More important than god, right?
Well, he doesn’t believe in god!
So I don’t know about Americans—
Oh, yeah, Americans are really into music.
It’s a different culture.
[slight pause]
I have another idea about desire and expectation. Desire is like asking yourself what you want, then the goal is like expectation, and you fulfill it step by step, and maybe you get it, and maybe you don’t, but the result doesn’t matter. So I don’t agree with your friend. It’s how you go through it, how you experience, so you live right now.
How about expectation?
I say, you have desire, so you set it up as an expectation, so you make it happen, as your goal, so that’s the expectation.
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