Participants Discussion Transcript: Mary, Fanny, Riley, Flora, Angela
I read a book and it helped me think about these questions very practically, its about a guy who only wants to work four hours a week. And he has very vivid description about our sense of security about work, but he thinks this is ridiculous. He says you work 56 hours a week to get promoted to work more hours a week. And the other ridiculous example about your career dreams is, you expect to go travel and do every thing you want to do after retirement. And now you waste a lot of time with colleagues. Actually you don’t do much, you just forward some email, and chat on unimportant topics with your colleagues, and so this is what makes your life meaningful. So he tried to do what he want, so he went to travel in Europe, and right away, in the next month. And it evokes a thought for me, we put what dreams you have, what you want, at some untouchable point, but we see the path we took the work we do right now as a cost to exchange for future happiness. But in fact it’s untouchable to us.
It’s really easy to talk about to appreciate what we are right now, but we are unconscious of that most of the time. It’s easy to say we’re satisfied. But take me as an example, we’re unconscious of real happiness, and we dare not do what makes us really happy at that moment. It’s like a circle, keep planning, keep planning, but actually you wasting time, enforce the plan is not really the right direction.
Like maybe we’re just always planning for the future.
But maybe the plan is wrong, we just enjoy the planning. For the sense of security. So you follow the conventional steps, and it’s questionable you could achieve your happiness by this kinds of way. So about this question, I’m thinking right now, I’m thinking there’s no answer actually. We keep pursuing the answer what makes us happy, but I don’t think there’s an answer.
But you don’t think there’s a difference between desire and expectation?
Mmm.
I just found it’s easier for most people to say they are unhappy, but it’s harder for people to say they are happy. Because most people do not know exactly what they really want, and who they really are, so they don’t know whether they are, if they are really happy or not. They just know, I’m not happy now. But they have no idea what will make them happy.
So do you think there’s a difference between desire and expectation?
I just think expectation is what others or myself want to achieve, and desire is I just want to get, I want to do, I just want to achieve, regardless of what others think. Like, I expect myself to be a professional person, but maybe that’s because I hope others see me like this.
So it’s more a social thing.
Maybe.
As her definition expectation is interpreted more socially, and—
And desire is more—personal.
You know, I had this conversation with a 1-1 student of mine. He’s pretty rich, and he said that he was so grateful that he was well off. He’s like, when he desires something, no matter what, he can just get it. He said, if he didn’t have money, his desires would turn into expectation, which is really like a state of loss. He’s like, if I want a Rolex Oyster automatically winding watch or whatever, if the desire enters his head, he can just act on it, and there’s joy in that. To fulfill your desire—that’s joy. If he didn’t have the money, he’d maybe have to save for it, then that desire would become the expectation of fulfillment at some point in the future, and then, basically, it would be all about NOT having the watch, and not fulfilling his desire, and so the joy would be lost. He would be in a state of loss.
So it’s because of this conversation, because of what he said, that I proposed this question for discussion today. I never though about this before, and I thought it would be interesting to see what y’all said. So what you just said about the planning, I think this is related somehow to what my student was saying, but I don’t see it yet.
Okay, so the watch, somehow in the process, not having the watch is a kind of energy, for keeping your life going, but when you get the watch, you lose the energy, you don’t have anything to push you to go further.
Wow, that goes with the planning then.
That’s why people plan and don’t get, because they’re afraid of what happens when they get.
So they start up another plan so they—
So it’s like, what’s the destination of your whole plan?
Like recently, we had some promotion, and lots of personnel events, some people were promoted, and some people failed in the competition. Some people, when they’re manager, they expect to be vice president, and so on. Their whole life. If you’re their president, you’ll have struggled for 15 or 20 years. Most people, if you take this company life for example, all the life is just planning for this stage. But what’s the meaning, the eternal meaning for you? You spent 2 years promoted to president, but what’s the value of that?
But from my point of view, planning from every stage of life, not totally a bad thing. It’s not a bad source of energy. What matters is the contents you plan for. For example, you can plan for a travel, for next year, and so you start to save money, and serve on the internet to get information, and then when you achieve the goal, you can start to plan for another plan, like maybe publish a book for the trip, something like, I mean the, I think planning is a kind of process to help us to find the meaning of our life. When we start to plan something, we start to think about our goal, our desires, and our expectation, whatever, and then to organize the every resources we can get. I think, planning also can be a good thing, but—
So it’s a big difference for that, because you said planning for travel or whatever is sort of a personal affair, but when planning put in the context of social, society, somehow you cannot plan by yourself. You need to plan under the instructions of the society, most of the people regard, they have consensus on the principle, and the range is restricted, so it’s not your plan, so it’s decided by society. And then your, I think somehow your autonomy will be dismissed in this planning. If you just plan for travel, for dinner, sure, it’s quite free, you can achieve your desire, your innovation. But in society, even I obey my motivation, I cannot… I saw one of my colleague, she was promoted very fast, she became a senior manager at a very early age. From a social point of view, her planning very successful. But she live single, because she doesn’t have time to date, she has to spend the working hour. And she doesn’t have hobby, because she doesn’t have time for some entertainment. She sacrificed this for her position. She doesn’t get any, she didn’t attend her desire for some basic happiness for her life.
But she made her own decision. For when she decide to contribute her whole time to achieve her goal, I think she, I propose that she thought very clear, and she should take responsibility of her life. So if she choose by herself—
But seriously how much is it really her choice? Think about it, a man in her position wouldn’t have had to give up being married. I doubt she didn’t get married because she didn’t have time to date. I bet she didn’t because she knew she didn’t have time to take on the responsibilities of the expectations placed on women in a marriage, knew that she couldn’t do that and also further her career. You know, mostly for men, when they get married, it frees them up to concentrate on their career, because they don’t have to take care of cleaning laundry etc, because why? Because the woman is doing it. Women, including working women, are expected to do a disproportionate amount of home work. Besides the social pressure to have a baby for a family, all of that. It’s not the same as a man being married.
Maybe there are some results, unexpected, after her choice. Maybe she tried to assume, she thinks, okay, when I’m a manager, I’ll have more time money and power to fulfill her personal life. But when she gets to that position, the things don’t match her imagination. She could not expect, it’s like a game, when you go to certain situation, she cannot predict what the situation will be.
[slight pause]
So Riley, you’ve been really quiet.
I am on the same page with them, so—
In that case, if you were the woman she mentioned, what would you choose?
Um, if I’m rich, then I would go for my basic, what I really want, which is not work, in that woman’s situation. But if I’m not rich, then I would pursue my career, because you need to have enough money to maintain your present life. After that, you can start to do whatever you want. So if you want to do something, you really have to focus on work, which is making money, what I’m doing now.
Well for me, I made a vow in 2001 to only do work that also spiritually satisfies me. I’m not saying it’s got to be 100% or nothing, it’s just that the job has to allow me to grow personally, on some level, not just feed me. It’s got to support me and at least somewhat feed my soul. Of course I currently have the privilege of having a decent range of choice of jobs, but so, what I’m saying is, to the extent that I have a choice, I’m definitely going to choose something that lets me grow, not just take whatever makes me the most money quickest.
Flora just said that in the reality, maybe your friend cannot expect or control the feedback from society to her choice. I just want think maybe, that’s the major reason why we feel unhappy. Because after we make decision, the feedback of the situation not fit our expectation or desire, so then we feel unhappy.
Huh, you might have solved something for me. A friend of mine just bounces from job to job, is always changing jobs. Even when he’s negotiated himself into a good position, three months later he’ll say to his girlfriend, “Hey, there’s this job available in Hong Kong.” And it makes her want to scream, because she’s already moved around for him, and sacrificed a fairly well paying job so he could be in Taipei. So we were discussing this, but couldn’t come to any conclusion. But now that you said that, I realized: He doesn’t know how to develop where he’s at. He thinks you have to walk into a perfect situation, and when it isn’t, he just wants to give up on it. Whereas other people like look at where they are and try to develop the situation they’re in, and try to improve where they are currently, to make it what they want it to be.
And you know, the other, the case I mentioned, the colleague, right now she’s a senior manager. She sacrificed opportunity to organize a family, when but she want to get a better promotion, she was blocked by her sacrifice. She didn’t have a family. They don’t think a person, because it’s a bureaucracy, they think a person with a family is more stable. So for instance, if she gets angry, they think, “See?” And she lacks contacts, because people think about what kinds of contacts you have through your family. But if you’re a single person, you don’t have these family contacts. Like, if your father in law is in a certain business, or your husband is a diplomat. So it’s the rule of social games, but it’s hard to realize the rules unless you encounter that.
But I think it’s just an excuse to just not promote your colleague.
Yes, I think so too.
Because there’s another case, there’s a woman, she had a family, but she was not promoted because she had family. I think that’s the sex discrimination. Our gvt, the whole society, just don’t want to promote women, so they will find excuse as possible as they can to choose a man. I think so.
I think of another example, because previous, President Ma want to pick some ministers—the combination of ministers in his cabinet, he need to announce he is fair about gender, so he have to collect enough female ministers, no matter if they are capable or not. On that point, that list is really surprising.
Hey, about them ‘being capable or not’, it’s hard to get experience if you aren’t given the opportunity, don’t you think?
Hey, what about Tsai Ingwen? She’s single, right? And she was being considered to be the chairman of the DPP, and some bigwig in the party was like, a single woman is inappropriate? My girlfriend was so pissed off about that. She was finally still appointed, right?
Yes, and that guy was forced to apologise to her.
Aw, yeah!
Yes, first of all because women’s groups protested about that. Second, her father is pretty powerful. But Lu Shioulien, [the previous Vice President of Taiwan] she didn’t get that kind of apology.
But she doesn’t have a powerful relative.
Yeah, but so she’s even more amazing, because she managed to be the Vice President of the country. And she’s not married, either right? She still could be so powerful, have the kind of backing to be the second-most powerful position in the gvt.
Hsinchu Discussion Transcript: Knowing What's Nice
Participants: Peter W, Amenda, Kevin, Angela
I think desire is maybe the things you don’t need, and you don’t want, but expectation is your dreams and your wish you want to fulfill it, and the picture you want to go for. And desire is the things you want but don’t need.
Expectation is more positive, it’s something you want to achieve. But desire is more, for me, more unrealistic, it’s more like a dream that cannot true. It’s my secret, but it’s a dream that cannot come true. Maybe it’s illegal. More unrealistic. But expectation is more practical. You go to it step by step, you expect it. But desire, you don’t expect it. You don’t really have to make this come true, because it’s just desire. Maybe it’s illegal.
I’m afraid to ask…
[laughter]
Like a second wife, maybe you want a second wife, but that’s just desire.
But I would say today’s topic is related to the topic we discussed last week.
How’s it related?
Because they say, do you know enough, it looks like, how could I say, do you know enough when you are happy, or you have enough, I would say it really depends on, you have different desire, or different extra need. But as long as you know how to put that intangible thing in a real framework, then you can see if you can achieve or not. The first one, “How do you know enough to appreciate where you are??”… this one I don’t know how to say, like every day, you wake up its different, like a new house or something. For the second one, “How do you know when you have enough money?” that’s a lot more clear. You know when you’ll go bankrupt. But number three, “How do you know when to be satisfied with what you have?” What do you mean ‘when’?
The point at which you’re satisfied.
Some signal?
Yeah, how do you know?
When you feel comfortable, when you feel free. Some CEO said the major purpose of making money, or getting rich is that it provides more freedom for what you want, what to do, how to achieve.
Right, because money gives you the right to choose.
It’s true. What you want, where to go.
Right—it’s the budget, if you don’t have it, you don’t even dare turn on the heater. Because I’m thinking, if you don’t have this—you need money—you don’t have it, you’re in a state of horror. If you have enough money, you’re free of this state of horror. So if you have money, you can do anything, if you don’t have money, you can’t do anything.
But if you have money, you can do a lot of things you can do when you don’t have money.
What’s ‘where you are’?
It’s like your status or situation. It’s not your physical location.
Okay, I try to compare the difference between desire and expectation. I want to explain desire from the—when we say I have some desire to do something, I think the idea should be initiated from our own mind, and I think, but expectation more often we use “expect”, this word, in a passive way. It means the, usually, we have something to expect, to achieve, is under somebody’s or external wishes, it means always our performance has some lack, between our own, desire or, and other people’s expectation. So most people, I think we work, we perform well following society, our family, friends, teachers, some rules they set. But often, what we have done the right way, is other’s expectation, didn’t follow our desire.
Yes, exactly!
So I think the, I say only we will feel happy or free, okay, following our internal desire. Often we cannot get the real happiness by dong some, try our best to fill other’s expectation. So, I think the major difference is, uh, desire is coming from our own mind, and can decide or monitor or control by yourself. But the expectation, I think sometimes we, it’s under, how to say, under some kind of pressure or some kind of, not the coming out of the free will, our free will. So, also we can say, desire, the scope is decided by ourselves, but sometime the scope of expectation is not decided by yourself, but by others around us.
So expectation is negative, in this characterization.
But I don’t think expectation is negative, I think it’s passive.
As an American, passive = bad, so passive is also a negative connotation for us. I know it’s not for Chinese and Taiwanese culture
So for a homosexual guy, they never fulfill their parents expectation, so they don’t say they’re gay in front of their parents. But it’s not natural—
What’s not natural?
For them, or for most of gays, they’re born homosexual, so not decided by themselves. So if we respect their desire of the sexual—even they are not fulfill the expectation of their parents or most people around her or him. So only you can get only real happiness follow his own desire.
That’s a very interesting point.
And now I know how to answer question 1 and 4. “How do you know enough to appreciate where you are?” and “How do you know enough to know when you’re happy?”
How?
If I can live in a state, up to my expectation, then I’m quite happy.
What is your expectation?
It depends on the state of my situation. Sometimes my desire is more unrealistic or unattainable. But if I can work up to expectation. So I can live up to second one, then I can be happy. So if I can live up to the level up my expectation, then I can be happy. My expectation is different from you, let’s say for, let’s say you want a score of 100, I just happy with 90. So I’m talking about my standard for myself.
So how about the people around you, do you have expectations for the people you’re close to, and how do you handle them?
It’s like respect, if you are respected. It’s not like you’re rich, but if you show up, you’re respected, that’s what I’m talking about. I cannot say high class, just that you’re respected.
Social standing. High social standing?
No not like that.
Middle class?
No, what I’m saying, respect, that’s the basic minimum standard.
Mmm, don’t quite understand. Do you guys get it?
Maybe, restate the question.
What I’m saying, I want respect from my friends, so I’m saying, minimum respect. I’m saying, like professional skills, or respect, it’s not those things, what I’m saying, maybe it’s because—
You’re saying you expect your friends to have integrity?
It’s part of that.
Does this have something to do with ‘face’?
You’re saying your friends want to be friends with you because you’re rich or your high position, are you saying that?
No, he’s saying the opposite.
No, you asked, “what I expect from my friends”, so I said ‘respect’.
It’s hard to talk about this, right?
I’m saying there could be many things that they respect you for, the point is, what you want from your friends is respect.
You expect to be respected by your friends, for whatever reason.
Yeah.
So what do *you* expect from the people around you?
So your question, we usually expect others around us to do something, so we feel good.
Yeah, I think so. But I don’t know…I think maybe a simple criteria is we don’t have the right to force the people around us to make us feel happy. Maybe they feel some uncomfortable.
Wow, this is exactly what my girlfriend was talking about the other day.
So the difference between desire and expectation, we live under other’s—you know unreasonable—inhuman expectation. So following the same logic, I don’t have the right to add some unnecessary pressure to my family, to my colleagues.
Wow, that’s saying a lot!
Everyone have the right to live, to perform, to maintain his relationship with your friends, your boss, your— So. So just like today’s topic, knowing what’s nice, I think, uh, yeah. We have to respect everyone has his own way to pursue happiness and choose, okay, physical and psychological life. I remember the article author emphasize the music right?
Yeah!
Very important! More important than god, right?
Well, he doesn’t believe in god!
So I don’t know about Americans—
Oh, yeah, Americans are really into music.
It’s a different culture.
[slight pause]
I have another idea about desire and expectation. Desire is like asking yourself what you want, then the goal is like expectation, and you fulfill it step by step, and maybe you get it, and maybe you don’t, but the result doesn’t matter. So I don’t agree with your friend. It’s how you go through it, how you experience, so you live right now.
How about expectation?
I say, you have desire, so you set it up as an expectation, so you make it happen, as your goal, so that’s the expectation.
I think desire is maybe the things you don’t need, and you don’t want, but expectation is your dreams and your wish you want to fulfill it, and the picture you want to go for. And desire is the things you want but don’t need.
Expectation is more positive, it’s something you want to achieve. But desire is more, for me, more unrealistic, it’s more like a dream that cannot true. It’s my secret, but it’s a dream that cannot come true. Maybe it’s illegal. More unrealistic. But expectation is more practical. You go to it step by step, you expect it. But desire, you don’t expect it. You don’t really have to make this come true, because it’s just desire. Maybe it’s illegal.
I’m afraid to ask…
[laughter]
Like a second wife, maybe you want a second wife, but that’s just desire.
But I would say today’s topic is related to the topic we discussed last week.
How’s it related?
Because they say, do you know enough, it looks like, how could I say, do you know enough when you are happy, or you have enough, I would say it really depends on, you have different desire, or different extra need. But as long as you know how to put that intangible thing in a real framework, then you can see if you can achieve or not. The first one, “How do you know enough to appreciate where you are??”… this one I don’t know how to say, like every day, you wake up its different, like a new house or something. For the second one, “How do you know when you have enough money?” that’s a lot more clear. You know when you’ll go bankrupt. But number three, “How do you know when to be satisfied with what you have?” What do you mean ‘when’?
The point at which you’re satisfied.
Some signal?
Yeah, how do you know?
When you feel comfortable, when you feel free. Some CEO said the major purpose of making money, or getting rich is that it provides more freedom for what you want, what to do, how to achieve.
Right, because money gives you the right to choose.
It’s true. What you want, where to go.
Right—it’s the budget, if you don’t have it, you don’t even dare turn on the heater. Because I’m thinking, if you don’t have this—you need money—you don’t have it, you’re in a state of horror. If you have enough money, you’re free of this state of horror. So if you have money, you can do anything, if you don’t have money, you can’t do anything.
But if you have money, you can do a lot of things you can do when you don’t have money.
What’s ‘where you are’?
It’s like your status or situation. It’s not your physical location.
Okay, I try to compare the difference between desire and expectation. I want to explain desire from the—when we say I have some desire to do something, I think the idea should be initiated from our own mind, and I think, but expectation more often we use “expect”, this word, in a passive way. It means the, usually, we have something to expect, to achieve, is under somebody’s or external wishes, it means always our performance has some lack, between our own, desire or, and other people’s expectation. So most people, I think we work, we perform well following society, our family, friends, teachers, some rules they set. But often, what we have done the right way, is other’s expectation, didn’t follow our desire.
Yes, exactly!
So I think the, I say only we will feel happy or free, okay, following our internal desire. Often we cannot get the real happiness by dong some, try our best to fill other’s expectation. So, I think the major difference is, uh, desire is coming from our own mind, and can decide or monitor or control by yourself. But the expectation, I think sometimes we, it’s under, how to say, under some kind of pressure or some kind of, not the coming out of the free will, our free will. So, also we can say, desire, the scope is decided by ourselves, but sometime the scope of expectation is not decided by yourself, but by others around us.
So expectation is negative, in this characterization.
But I don’t think expectation is negative, I think it’s passive.
As an American, passive = bad, so passive is also a negative connotation for us. I know it’s not for Chinese and Taiwanese culture
So for a homosexual guy, they never fulfill their parents expectation, so they don’t say they’re gay in front of their parents. But it’s not natural—
What’s not natural?
For them, or for most of gays, they’re born homosexual, so not decided by themselves. So if we respect their desire of the sexual—even they are not fulfill the expectation of their parents or most people around her or him. So only you can get only real happiness follow his own desire.
That’s a very interesting point.
And now I know how to answer question 1 and 4. “How do you know enough to appreciate where you are?” and “How do you know enough to know when you’re happy?”
How?
If I can live in a state, up to my expectation, then I’m quite happy.
What is your expectation?
It depends on the state of my situation. Sometimes my desire is more unrealistic or unattainable. But if I can work up to expectation. So I can live up to second one, then I can be happy. So if I can live up to the level up my expectation, then I can be happy. My expectation is different from you, let’s say for, let’s say you want a score of 100, I just happy with 90. So I’m talking about my standard for myself.
So how about the people around you, do you have expectations for the people you’re close to, and how do you handle them?
It’s like respect, if you are respected. It’s not like you’re rich, but if you show up, you’re respected, that’s what I’m talking about. I cannot say high class, just that you’re respected.
Social standing. High social standing?
No not like that.
Middle class?
No, what I’m saying, respect, that’s the basic minimum standard.
Mmm, don’t quite understand. Do you guys get it?
Maybe, restate the question.
What I’m saying, I want respect from my friends, so I’m saying, minimum respect. I’m saying, like professional skills, or respect, it’s not those things, what I’m saying, maybe it’s because—
You’re saying you expect your friends to have integrity?
It’s part of that.
Does this have something to do with ‘face’?
You’re saying your friends want to be friends with you because you’re rich or your high position, are you saying that?
No, he’s saying the opposite.
No, you asked, “what I expect from my friends”, so I said ‘respect’.
It’s hard to talk about this, right?
I’m saying there could be many things that they respect you for, the point is, what you want from your friends is respect.
You expect to be respected by your friends, for whatever reason.
Yeah.
So what do *you* expect from the people around you?
So your question, we usually expect others around us to do something, so we feel good.
Yeah, I think so. But I don’t know…I think maybe a simple criteria is we don’t have the right to force the people around us to make us feel happy. Maybe they feel some uncomfortable.
Wow, this is exactly what my girlfriend was talking about the other day.
So the difference between desire and expectation, we live under other’s—you know unreasonable—inhuman expectation. So following the same logic, I don’t have the right to add some unnecessary pressure to my family, to my colleagues.
Wow, that’s saying a lot!
Everyone have the right to live, to perform, to maintain his relationship with your friends, your boss, your— So. So just like today’s topic, knowing what’s nice, I think, uh, yeah. We have to respect everyone has his own way to pursue happiness and choose, okay, physical and psychological life. I remember the article author emphasize the music right?
Yeah!
Very important! More important than god, right?
Well, he doesn’t believe in god!
So I don’t know about Americans—
Oh, yeah, Americans are really into music.
It’s a different culture.
[slight pause]
I have another idea about desire and expectation. Desire is like asking yourself what you want, then the goal is like expectation, and you fulfill it step by step, and maybe you get it, and maybe you don’t, but the result doesn’t matter. So I don’t agree with your friend. It’s how you go through it, how you experience, so you live right now.
How about expectation?
I say, you have desire, so you set it up as an expectation, so you make it happen, as your goal, so that’s the expectation.
A little extra for you all: Corporate Cannibal
I've looked all over, but can't find the lyrics yet. When I can, I'll post them.
Updated to say: Here's a link to lyrics, scroll down a bit to find them.
Meanwhile, some excerpts from an interesting post on The Pinocchio Theory:
In the video, Jones is frightening, ferocious, predatory, vampiric. She has become pure electronic pulse, materiality of the electronic medium ... — and she will utterly devour and destroy (convert into more image, more electronic pulse, more of herself) whatever thinks it might be able to stand apart from the process.
Jones’ voice is at first wheedling (”Pleased to meet you/ Pleased to have you on my plate”), before it turns stentorian, imperative, and threatening; and at the end of the song it modulates again, beyond words, into a predatory growl or snarl. She is telling us flatly that she will destory and devour us (”I’m a man-eating machine… Eat you like an animal… Every man, woman, and child is a target”). She is a vampire, but not a romantic one: rather, the song expresses Jones’ absolute identification with Capital as a vampiric force (remember that Marx long ago described capitalism as vampiric: “Capital is dead labor, which, vampire-like, lives only by sucking living labor, and lives the more, the more labor it sucks”). Jones sings: “I deal in the market… A closet full of faceless, nameless, pay-more-for-less emptiness… You’ll pay less tax but I will gain more back… I’ll consume my consumers.” Her lyrics absurdly juxtapose the cliches of corporate-speak (”Employer of the year”) with those of pulp horror (”Grandmaster of fear”).
Grace Jones is forcing us to confront the way in which, today, even the transgression that might have thrilled us twenty-five years ago is little more than another marketing strategy. Or the way in which, beyond all those discourses about race and gender and “the body,” the only thing that is “transgressive” today is Capital itself, which devours everything without any regard for boundaries, distinctions, or degrees of legitimacy; which “transgresses” the very possibility of “transgression,” because it is always only transgressing itself in order to create still more of itself, devouring not only its own tail but its entire body, in order to achieve even greater levels of monstrosity. Or, as Dejan puts it, in the video “you can see directly the intimate bond between animation and the mutability of Capital,” as Jones’ electronic mutations or modulations track and embrace and coincide with the metamorphoses of Capital itself, in our world of delirious financial flows and hedge funds and currency manipulations and bad debts passed on from one speculator to the next ...
“Corporate Cannibal” ... gives the most profound expression or articulation that I have yet come across to the affect of the vertiginous “globalized network society” we live in today.
The Simple Life
Questions to Ponder:
1. Why do so few people really enjoy their jobs?
2. Why is it so hard to earn money doing things you really enjoy?
3. Does our education system preclude people from finding out that they would be happy doing garbage collecting type jobs?
4. Why do we have to earn money?
5. Why do we need to own an apartment/house?
6. Why do we need a scooter or car?
7. What is the point of a college education? Does it really lead to an improved life?
8. Does the investment in bushibans and education really improve people’s lives?
[Consider the difference between schooling and learning.]
9. Taiwan has entered an era of real prosperity, full of name-brand clothes and automobiles, and access to an amazing array of consumer goods, both locally made and imported.
10. Does this make Taiwan a better place?
11. Does this make Taiwan a happier place?
12. Do you agree that the more money you have, the better off you are?
Discussion Question:
Why work?
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Articles:
Hsinchu Discussion Transcript: Simple Life
Participants: Liyun, Kevin, Wilson, Angela
Okay, our question today is ‘Why work?’
You ask me, I’ll say, trading daily necessities, or trading value. It could be intangible.
I totally like that definition. That’s the portfolio life, totally.
My opinion is, the reason we work is not only to satisfy mandatory needs, like obligation to our children. We also have to fulfill your own goals, or enjoy some achievement.
But how does that relate to work?
Of course we want the money, but beyond the money we want to achieve something. Maybe it’s the character of my job, because I work for a research institute. Our dream is we want to establish something, or design some product. So it’s not a commercial purpose, necessarily, if we establish a product, it’s for a dream. So earning money is the mandatory purpose for our work, but beyond that we want to satisfy our dreams, or some enjoyment. It’s kind of like a portfolio life, but a little bit different.
What’s the difference?
It’s not the money, for portfolio life, you must control your needs, especially if you want to earn much more money to fulfill your needs, that’s the concept there, but for the concept, to earn money is your mandatory needs, because you have obligation to your children, so earning money is your first purpose for work, but beyond the bottom line you have another purpose.
That’s why I went into architecture. I wanted to make money and also pursue my dreams. I found it didn’t work. It wasn’t anything like pursuing my dreams, really.
But for Kevin, the key term is value?
I would say money is a kind of value, I want to get this thing, and so money is a way to do that, but I use value, as its broader than money. in ancient time, we trade thing, now we use money, but it doesn’t have to be money. So it’s trade.
Let’s exchange.
Right, so in the beginning, it’s a tiny thing, but it probably grows in to something valuable. Maybe for you it’s not very important, but maybe for your trading partner, it’s quite valuable. So it’s an intangible trading value.
What is tangible?
The thing you can touch. Let say, that’s my mobile, I trade for your watch, okay, that’s very conventional form of doing business.
So your opinion is you’re working to own something, the real something, and to include, some intangible things.
No my point is, to work, you create your own value. When you work , you have to continuously create your value, so someone can take advantage of your value, otherwise they can kick you out.
So the value is evaluated by some other people?
Could be. You could think you’re very valuable, but actually nobody want to hire you, so, you have no value.
So your opinion is like, uh, you are more concerned about the society point of view about your value. I mean, the other people make, for example, you think you are valuable, but other people don’t think your value is reasonable.
So then your position is not that reasonable, yes. You live in this society…
You need to obey the society rule.
What about if society has conflicting ideas about your value. For example, if people ask what I do, I tell them I’m an English teacher, and they go, ‘oh’, and kind of look down and away. But I know my work is valuable, because lots of people ask me to work for them, and I’m paid well. So it’s a bit difficult to determine if my skills have value. I’m paid well, but looked down on. It’s kind of interesting.
So there’s fairness and justice. You think you’re valuable, but other people don’t think. It’s a judgment, it’s an own opinion.
According to this article, it says, just as work distinguish some different types of job, like dirty work, or non-dirty work. I just interested about, just as you say, if you feel it is your…it’s your responsibility to clean up your environment, your environment surrounding your house. If you think it is your responsibility, you will make it clean.
It’s your job, right.
So you think it is your responsibility?
So yes, no one has to pay you or force you to. Some people have different standards, someone ask you to clean, but you think it’s okay. Like washing the dishes, it’s a kind of responsibility. I wouldn’t say it’s that someone has to pay you, for me it’s quite natural to do this thing.
I know that sometimes in western society, the standards or different you have to clean your house or garden, or they will fine you.
It’s a community force.
A kind of standards, yes.
I think even inside, they will check. Like when Taiwan was colonized by Japan, the authorities would go into your house to check if it’s clean. Because they thought Taiwanese are not clean, not disciplined. They think, if your house is not clean, how can your environment be clean? So they do a checkup, to see if your house clean or not. So they want to, so they try to help people have the idea, you got to keep the area good. Otherwise you go to prison.
It’s like the Japanese cultural approach to discipline, they like to have a regular life.
I was taught in Netherlands, there’s something like this, they will check your garden.
In the US, it’s property owner’s associations. I heard that in the US, in 90% of suburbs, the property associations have a regulation that you can’t hang your laundry outside. All that sunshine, and you have to use a dryer, which destroys your clothes, dryers do, really, and all because someone’s afraid of seeing your underwear?
[general laughter and discussion about whether or not it’s okay to see others’ underwear]
So what’s your opinion?
My simple life opinion, is earn money is okay, and spend other time on things you like to do. Because I have been working for almost 33 years, because I was working since I was 16 years old. I worked all day, and went to school, and my, so one year ago, I stopped my work, the routine work. I didn’t get the pay from that time, take a rest and to maintain my health. So, that’s why I’m learning English in here. That’s my hobby, and my, I was major in management, so I think I will find a job like our teacher, in my near future. That’s my opinion of the simple life, because I’m still simple too, also. I’m not married before, so I think one person living alone is simple.
I really agree with you.
I don’t have obligation to next generation, and my parents died 10 and 4 years ago, and so yesterday I went to the Hualien tower mausoleum, to see my father and mother. I went to there for worshipping them yesterday afternoon. I asked the management of the tower, a middle aged lady, asked do they have somebody here, and she said, already there were 4 people here, because the doors were open, because it’s ghost month.
Oh, ghost month! I always have so many accidents in ghost month! I’m starting to believe in it for real.
So anyway, for me, everything for me. I don’t have any responsibility.
No, you have responsibility for yourself, and for your life!
Of course, for your life!
So you have no burdens.
For money, like our teacher told us, she lost money on the stock market because she didn’t take it out in time. For me, the same. I had the chance to earn a lot of money, but I lost it. We had money in the science park, and should have sold it when it was high, for about 10 years, but I didn’t. Now I can tell myself, that’s how it is, because I didn’t handle my money well. I don’t want to think it over again, so I just deal with what’s in front of me. So I just want to take a rest, and maybe next year find a job. Still in preparation for myself.
That’s brave, though, that’s a brave thing to do.
But it’s good. In this year, I do exercise, chi gong, almost every day. This is helping me to recover my physical condition. And I eat right. Everything is not more than what I do to recover myself. In my old job, had a lot of pressure, and I like to do everything perfect, and so I did things on my work very careful, and I did a lot of good job, very good job. TSMC, I was the assistant of General Affairs, and I got prize in the company internal contest. In 30 years I got 8 promotions, and, I design, you know one furniture, and got the designer prize. That’s not my main job, but I think there is some room for improvement. That’s why I stop my job, the environment, the people was not good, and not made us feel comfortable.
It’s interesting, for a young man, if you ask the question, why do you work, the standard answer is to earn money. but for middle age worker, if you as the same question, they say, to earn money, but I want to get something else.
Yeah.
As the article mentioned, the simple life represent the less needs, so you need to control the needs, so the needs include the money, and include some necessary you want to get.
Good question. For my part, I think I need to prepare if someday, I lost everything, property, without a place to live in, and how to survive. That’s what I always ask myself, these years, the idea is stronger than before. I think, if I can overpass the challenge, then I will be a happy person. I know what the really value in my life.
Can I ask, what kind of challenge?
If you have the opportunity to start over your life, what kind of work you want to do?
The work where people need me.
Like you said, if you have value for others, then you are valuable.
It's like service, there's two sides. You think about other side, other side think about us. What we think about ourself, where is our value, what is value to us. So, I would say, I do…yesterday and before, is for the future. I don’t want to ask someone borrow me money, or give me something else, so my ideal would be healthy and simple life, and I can do something for others, and enough money, not too much money, and I just think if money is enough, don’t eat too much, don’t wear too beautiful. Don’t spend too much. That’s the simple life. And the value others think about us, we need to create or that’s…potential. We need to calculate really our daily life to make strong our mind than before. Do not be hurt by others anymore. I think we all nice people, we don’t want to hurt others, but daily life, another people want to make money, but don’t care honest, so maybe they hurt honest people.
In some cases yes.
But although the simple life is want to reduce your needs, less needs, I would say it is difficult. For example, for money, you want to get enough money, but I would say it depends on what is your needs. If you ask young people, they say they want to earn more money. But the same question to middle age workers, they would say just a little money, but they want to get other money from other side. So it's difficult to control enough, to be satisfied for enough money. It’s difficult to identify or achieve.
Okay, my major in management in financial, I work a long time in financial before. Recently I read some of financial articles, just like a review, and how can in the future I can manage my money, better than before, because in Chinese, there’s a saying, money have four legs, and people just two legs, we don’t care money, and money don’t care us. So I don’t worry for money since I have some passive income.
Some people say, they want more money so they want to help other people, so they want to have more money.
Yes, I do some charity.
Yes, so they want the satisfaction so that they can help people and from the engineering side, if you can earn enough money, you can plan the efficient good way to earn the money, so you can do well plan. That’s the engineers aspect. If I need 10000 dollars, I can achieve the enough level. I can use one year to achieve 10000 level, then I can use the other time to do something else. That’s young people thinking logic.
I think the young people, it’s better they save money than spend, that’s important.
You know, I didn’t start saving money till I was 34. But I know how much I need, how much is ‘enough’ for me.
So if you know what’s enough, then you can make a plan to earn that money.
I always though if I just work hard, just study hard, then I will get what I worked for. And I think a money plan, I can make money again, don’t give myself too much pressure.
Yes, if you worry about money, you might as well go back to work.
During my career, I had a lot of pressure, because I had a mortgage on my house, and I was very nervous, and I sold my stock very low, and paid down the mortgage, and that was a release for me, because we have a loading. Someone said to me, you are so young to be tired! Someone asked me, why you just stay at home? I was very shy about this question, I was worried about a lot of things. After a year, everything is okay.
So you have retired? You retired 2 years ago.
Yes.
So you have fixed income?
She said, she sold her stock to pay off her morgage.
But stock is not fixed, you said fixed income?
Passive income, not fixed income. I have a house I rent to others. So I have a simple life.
But renting out property is not simple!
It’s simpler than running a business!
Yah, true.
But now she has free time.
But now I have adventures in learning. Before I have an MBA degree, but I never used it, so I think that’s a pity. So now I think I study hard, I can learn till I understand. Life is harder than before, for everybody, so we need to be a commercial animal.
(laughter)
Because money has four legs? So we have to get four legs like money?
(laughter)
We have to use all four limbs!
Actually I have a question. When we say career, just like she was retired. So she finish a career, and started another career.
So living the simple life is really like a trade off. I need a 30 ping house, but I don’t want a car.
But you live in Taipei city, so you don’t need one.
Exactly, that’s why I live in Taipei city, so I don’t have to have a car. If I lived in Hsinchu, I would have to have a car, and that would make me really unhappy, and I know that, so I would never live in Hsinchu.
You know, before, I was afraid to die, but now I’m not. That’s one kind of value. If you’re a good heart person, you care about when you die, or waste your life. But if we do something worth in our life…. That’s one kind of concept, in such a complicated society, it’s very strong and big challenge, how to manage ourself, especially in my experience. Not only money. Just for money, just earning money, I think both of you, you get salary, fixed salary, because you got salary…if I pass through this kind of life, I just continue the way as before. I have pressure, but I adjusted myself. Now, I feel peaceful than before. It was very hard way to go, because lonely.
Actually I know an organization, they set up, like, a house, and this is for older people, it’s set up by private company.
Retirement community.
Each day they have a program, and each person, you can stay there, and you don’t feel lonely.
There is one in Zhubei.
I go to a class, in such a community, I learn drawing. Some of my classmates from EMBA travel abroad. But I don’t like that, I think that’s a very simple life. 2 or three times, just go overseas and take a trip.
But some people they just stay at home and play mahjong everyday.
It’s their lifestyle.
But I don’t want to live like that. You said, retirement community, some of them, they don’t really know what they want, they just spend their time, and what do they think about? The meaning? Why do they go to that place?
The company of others!
But the company is for what? It depends on who your company is?
They do that for what? They don’t really know why they are here? Doing what? They don’t really have one self thinking or opinion. I should say, thinking by themselves, independent.
That’s the point of community. You don’t have to think.
Sure, but that way you don’t have to stay with your children. You could be a public volunteer, you could find some activity to do, instead of sitting at home, watch TV every day, because your life gets more and more boring that way.
So retirement community is to establish environment to have friends, so you don’t feel lonely.
You could do that a different way, just get involved in things to find friends.
I think every character is different. When they retire from their career, they stop growing. They did the same thing for 30 years, they always do the same thing to organize their life, and so that’s why the talking would be boring. So I like to spend alone, and I could think something by myself, not around people, and I don’t want to care my time in such place.
It’s just an option.
That’s my option, yes.
Okay, our question today is ‘Why work?’
You ask me, I’ll say, trading daily necessities, or trading value. It could be intangible.
I totally like that definition. That’s the portfolio life, totally.
My opinion is, the reason we work is not only to satisfy mandatory needs, like obligation to our children. We also have to fulfill your own goals, or enjoy some achievement.
But how does that relate to work?
Of course we want the money, but beyond the money we want to achieve something. Maybe it’s the character of my job, because I work for a research institute. Our dream is we want to establish something, or design some product. So it’s not a commercial purpose, necessarily, if we establish a product, it’s for a dream. So earning money is the mandatory purpose for our work, but beyond that we want to satisfy our dreams, or some enjoyment. It’s kind of like a portfolio life, but a little bit different.
What’s the difference?
It’s not the money, for portfolio life, you must control your needs, especially if you want to earn much more money to fulfill your needs, that’s the concept there, but for the concept, to earn money is your mandatory needs, because you have obligation to your children, so earning money is your first purpose for work, but beyond the bottom line you have another purpose.
That’s why I went into architecture. I wanted to make money and also pursue my dreams. I found it didn’t work. It wasn’t anything like pursuing my dreams, really.
But for Kevin, the key term is value?
I would say money is a kind of value, I want to get this thing, and so money is a way to do that, but I use value, as its broader than money. in ancient time, we trade thing, now we use money, but it doesn’t have to be money. So it’s trade.
Let’s exchange.
Right, so in the beginning, it’s a tiny thing, but it probably grows in to something valuable. Maybe for you it’s not very important, but maybe for your trading partner, it’s quite valuable. So it’s an intangible trading value.
What is tangible?
The thing you can touch. Let say, that’s my mobile, I trade for your watch, okay, that’s very conventional form of doing business.
So your opinion is you’re working to own something, the real something, and to include, some intangible things.
No my point is, to work, you create your own value. When you work , you have to continuously create your value, so someone can take advantage of your value, otherwise they can kick you out.
So the value is evaluated by some other people?
Could be. You could think you’re very valuable, but actually nobody want to hire you, so, you have no value.
So your opinion is like, uh, you are more concerned about the society point of view about your value. I mean, the other people make, for example, you think you are valuable, but other people don’t think your value is reasonable.
So then your position is not that reasonable, yes. You live in this society…
You need to obey the society rule.
What about if society has conflicting ideas about your value. For example, if people ask what I do, I tell them I’m an English teacher, and they go, ‘oh’, and kind of look down and away. But I know my work is valuable, because lots of people ask me to work for them, and I’m paid well. So it’s a bit difficult to determine if my skills have value. I’m paid well, but looked down on. It’s kind of interesting.
So there’s fairness and justice. You think you’re valuable, but other people don’t think. It’s a judgment, it’s an own opinion.
According to this article, it says, just as work distinguish some different types of job, like dirty work, or non-dirty work. I just interested about, just as you say, if you feel it is your…it’s your responsibility to clean up your environment, your environment surrounding your house. If you think it is your responsibility, you will make it clean.
It’s your job, right.
So you think it is your responsibility?
So yes, no one has to pay you or force you to. Some people have different standards, someone ask you to clean, but you think it’s okay. Like washing the dishes, it’s a kind of responsibility. I wouldn’t say it’s that someone has to pay you, for me it’s quite natural to do this thing.
I know that sometimes in western society, the standards or different you have to clean your house or garden, or they will fine you.
It’s a community force.
A kind of standards, yes.
I think even inside, they will check. Like when Taiwan was colonized by Japan, the authorities would go into your house to check if it’s clean. Because they thought Taiwanese are not clean, not disciplined. They think, if your house is not clean, how can your environment be clean? So they do a checkup, to see if your house clean or not. So they want to, so they try to help people have the idea, you got to keep the area good. Otherwise you go to prison.
It’s like the Japanese cultural approach to discipline, they like to have a regular life.
I was taught in Netherlands, there’s something like this, they will check your garden.
In the US, it’s property owner’s associations. I heard that in the US, in 90% of suburbs, the property associations have a regulation that you can’t hang your laundry outside. All that sunshine, and you have to use a dryer, which destroys your clothes, dryers do, really, and all because someone’s afraid of seeing your underwear?
[general laughter and discussion about whether or not it’s okay to see others’ underwear]
So what’s your opinion?
My simple life opinion, is earn money is okay, and spend other time on things you like to do. Because I have been working for almost 33 years, because I was working since I was 16 years old. I worked all day, and went to school, and my, so one year ago, I stopped my work, the routine work. I didn’t get the pay from that time, take a rest and to maintain my health. So, that’s why I’m learning English in here. That’s my hobby, and my, I was major in management, so I think I will find a job like our teacher, in my near future. That’s my opinion of the simple life, because I’m still simple too, also. I’m not married before, so I think one person living alone is simple.
I really agree with you.
I don’t have obligation to next generation, and my parents died 10 and 4 years ago, and so yesterday I went to the Hualien tower mausoleum, to see my father and mother. I went to there for worshipping them yesterday afternoon. I asked the management of the tower, a middle aged lady, asked do they have somebody here, and she said, already there were 4 people here, because the doors were open, because it’s ghost month.
Oh, ghost month! I always have so many accidents in ghost month! I’m starting to believe in it for real.
So anyway, for me, everything for me. I don’t have any responsibility.
No, you have responsibility for yourself, and for your life!
Of course, for your life!
So you have no burdens.
For money, like our teacher told us, she lost money on the stock market because she didn’t take it out in time. For me, the same. I had the chance to earn a lot of money, but I lost it. We had money in the science park, and should have sold it when it was high, for about 10 years, but I didn’t. Now I can tell myself, that’s how it is, because I didn’t handle my money well. I don’t want to think it over again, so I just deal with what’s in front of me. So I just want to take a rest, and maybe next year find a job. Still in preparation for myself.
That’s brave, though, that’s a brave thing to do.
But it’s good. In this year, I do exercise, chi gong, almost every day. This is helping me to recover my physical condition. And I eat right. Everything is not more than what I do to recover myself. In my old job, had a lot of pressure, and I like to do everything perfect, and so I did things on my work very careful, and I did a lot of good job, very good job. TSMC, I was the assistant of General Affairs, and I got prize in the company internal contest. In 30 years I got 8 promotions, and, I design, you know one furniture, and got the designer prize. That’s not my main job, but I think there is some room for improvement. That’s why I stop my job, the environment, the people was not good, and not made us feel comfortable.
It’s interesting, for a young man, if you ask the question, why do you work, the standard answer is to earn money. but for middle age worker, if you as the same question, they say, to earn money, but I want to get something else.
Yeah.
As the article mentioned, the simple life represent the less needs, so you need to control the needs, so the needs include the money, and include some necessary you want to get.
Good question. For my part, I think I need to prepare if someday, I lost everything, property, without a place to live in, and how to survive. That’s what I always ask myself, these years, the idea is stronger than before. I think, if I can overpass the challenge, then I will be a happy person. I know what the really value in my life.
Can I ask, what kind of challenge?
If you have the opportunity to start over your life, what kind of work you want to do?
The work where people need me.
Like you said, if you have value for others, then you are valuable.
It's like service, there's two sides. You think about other side, other side think about us. What we think about ourself, where is our value, what is value to us. So, I would say, I do…yesterday and before, is for the future. I don’t want to ask someone borrow me money, or give me something else, so my ideal would be healthy and simple life, and I can do something for others, and enough money, not too much money, and I just think if money is enough, don’t eat too much, don’t wear too beautiful. Don’t spend too much. That’s the simple life. And the value others think about us, we need to create or that’s…potential. We need to calculate really our daily life to make strong our mind than before. Do not be hurt by others anymore. I think we all nice people, we don’t want to hurt others, but daily life, another people want to make money, but don’t care honest, so maybe they hurt honest people.
In some cases yes.
But although the simple life is want to reduce your needs, less needs, I would say it is difficult. For example, for money, you want to get enough money, but I would say it depends on what is your needs. If you ask young people, they say they want to earn more money. But the same question to middle age workers, they would say just a little money, but they want to get other money from other side. So it's difficult to control enough, to be satisfied for enough money. It’s difficult to identify or achieve.
Okay, my major in management in financial, I work a long time in financial before. Recently I read some of financial articles, just like a review, and how can in the future I can manage my money, better than before, because in Chinese, there’s a saying, money have four legs, and people just two legs, we don’t care money, and money don’t care us. So I don’t worry for money since I have some passive income.
Some people say, they want more money so they want to help other people, so they want to have more money.
Yes, I do some charity.
Yes, so they want the satisfaction so that they can help people and from the engineering side, if you can earn enough money, you can plan the efficient good way to earn the money, so you can do well plan. That’s the engineers aspect. If I need 10000 dollars, I can achieve the enough level. I can use one year to achieve 10000 level, then I can use the other time to do something else. That’s young people thinking logic.
I think the young people, it’s better they save money than spend, that’s important.
You know, I didn’t start saving money till I was 34. But I know how much I need, how much is ‘enough’ for me.
So if you know what’s enough, then you can make a plan to earn that money.
I always though if I just work hard, just study hard, then I will get what I worked for. And I think a money plan, I can make money again, don’t give myself too much pressure.
Yes, if you worry about money, you might as well go back to work.
During my career, I had a lot of pressure, because I had a mortgage on my house, and I was very nervous, and I sold my stock very low, and paid down the mortgage, and that was a release for me, because we have a loading. Someone said to me, you are so young to be tired! Someone asked me, why you just stay at home? I was very shy about this question, I was worried about a lot of things. After a year, everything is okay.
So you have retired? You retired 2 years ago.
Yes.
So you have fixed income?
She said, she sold her stock to pay off her morgage.
But stock is not fixed, you said fixed income?
Passive income, not fixed income. I have a house I rent to others. So I have a simple life.
But renting out property is not simple!
It’s simpler than running a business!
Yah, true.
But now she has free time.
But now I have adventures in learning. Before I have an MBA degree, but I never used it, so I think that’s a pity. So now I think I study hard, I can learn till I understand. Life is harder than before, for everybody, so we need to be a commercial animal.
(laughter)
Because money has four legs? So we have to get four legs like money?
(laughter)
We have to use all four limbs!
Actually I have a question. When we say career, just like she was retired. So she finish a career, and started another career.
So living the simple life is really like a trade off. I need a 30 ping house, but I don’t want a car.
But you live in Taipei city, so you don’t need one.
Exactly, that’s why I live in Taipei city, so I don’t have to have a car. If I lived in Hsinchu, I would have to have a car, and that would make me really unhappy, and I know that, so I would never live in Hsinchu.
You know, before, I was afraid to die, but now I’m not. That’s one kind of value. If you’re a good heart person, you care about when you die, or waste your life. But if we do something worth in our life…. That’s one kind of concept, in such a complicated society, it’s very strong and big challenge, how to manage ourself, especially in my experience. Not only money. Just for money, just earning money, I think both of you, you get salary, fixed salary, because you got salary…if I pass through this kind of life, I just continue the way as before. I have pressure, but I adjusted myself. Now, I feel peaceful than before. It was very hard way to go, because lonely.
Actually I know an organization, they set up, like, a house, and this is for older people, it’s set up by private company.
Retirement community.
Each day they have a program, and each person, you can stay there, and you don’t feel lonely.
There is one in Zhubei.
I go to a class, in such a community, I learn drawing. Some of my classmates from EMBA travel abroad. But I don’t like that, I think that’s a very simple life. 2 or three times, just go overseas and take a trip.
But some people they just stay at home and play mahjong everyday.
It’s their lifestyle.
But I don’t want to live like that. You said, retirement community, some of them, they don’t really know what they want, they just spend their time, and what do they think about? The meaning? Why do they go to that place?
The company of others!
But the company is for what? It depends on who your company is?
They do that for what? They don’t really know why they are here? Doing what? They don’t really have one self thinking or opinion. I should say, thinking by themselves, independent.
That’s the point of community. You don’t have to think.
Sure, but that way you don’t have to stay with your children. You could be a public volunteer, you could find some activity to do, instead of sitting at home, watch TV every day, because your life gets more and more boring that way.
So retirement community is to establish environment to have friends, so you don’t feel lonely.
You could do that a different way, just get involved in things to find friends.
I think every character is different. When they retire from their career, they stop growing. They did the same thing for 30 years, they always do the same thing to organize their life, and so that’s why the talking would be boring. So I like to spend alone, and I could think something by myself, not around people, and I don’t want to care my time in such place.
It’s just an option.
That’s my option, yes.
The Grandmother Factor
Are old women important?
Choose a side:Team A) No. If you look at it in economic terms, they can’t have children any more, and they’re too old to have jobs, so they’re not economically useful at all. Old people are just a burden on society.
Team B) Yes. They play an important role in child raising, and strongly influence the quality of the people around them, both economically and spiritually.
Team C) Moderator.
Team D) No. Old women shouldn’t raise children, because they’re not modern enough. They don’t understand what a modern society needs, and they’ll teach the child all wrong.
Team E) Yes. Old women have a lot of life experience, and they’ve seen a lot more children than a young woman. So they know what to expect from a child, and will have a lot more mature of a response when difficult situations arise.
Taipei Discussion Transcript: Grandmothers
Participants: Mary, Maggie, Willie, Fanny, Angela
So it’s really common for Taiwan?
Yes.
You mentioned grandfathers in Taiwan really like getting involved in raising children.
Yes, because they’re retired, and watching TV is boring, and they want to get involved.
I think that’s amazing, that’s not something you think of.
Okay, shall we start?
Yes.
I’m team b, because I think that old people they have their, like, life experience about different things, and they know better than young people, and because they are grandmothers, and they love their grandkids, and so they want to take care of them. Maybe not just grandmom, just someone they are close to, and they will play that kind of role to them.
I also choose team b, because I think grandma play an important role of child-raising and they also contribute to the housework, and share the burden from mothers in each family. So I choose team b. Oh, they also have a lot experience in life.
Well, I’m not pretty sure if my grandmother have a lot of experiences in life, but grandmothers are the best of taking care of children, basically, the most important reason, basically, it’s kind of that they’ve learned a lot from raising our mother or father. I don’t know why, probably because those grandmothers, when mothers turn to grandmothers, they have lots of chances to exchange experiences with other mothers and grandmothers, makes them more knowledgeable, so this makes them better. Children brought up by grandmothers are ‘white and fat’. Like they say.
I agree with the article, that they have better survival.
Basically I think grandmothers know lots of details that mothers don’t know. And the mothers learn this 30 years later, for their grandkids.
So are you team b or team e?
I’m team b. I think the important part is not teaching children things. Usually that is affected by their traditional values, not pretty sure, it’s not all positive from the educational side, but they’re simply the best for taking care, on the survival side, to promote the probability of survival.
I’m also team b. And they all…the answer of team b, is just like you, because the grandmother has lots of information and knowledge about life and survival, and so, I think team b. Thank you! Thank you!
So we’re all team B. What do we talk about
Maybe I can provide an example with my grandma and me. Most grandmother only focus on raising their grandchildren, but I learned a lot of discipline from my daily life with my grandma. She asked me to make my bed when I get up, and also asked me to clean the table when I finished eating. So I learned a lot. What she taught me had a great influence on my personality.
Your mother didn’t make you do that?
My mother only focus on my homework, and how I behave in school.
Education!
Yeah yeah yeah, but not about…
…daily life!
Yeah. And also I like my grandma, because she help me a lot in some kind of home work, like sewing clothes or dolls, like that.
My grandma always gave us ice cream, cookies and soda, all at the same time. We could have as much as we wanted. That was so not what we were allowed at home! It’s how I learned that ice cream and cookies are good, and soda and ice cream is good, and cookies and soda are good, but all three together will make you sick.
But you know, I could have learned that as an adult, too, because if I wanted now to eat all three at the same time, I still could.
Isn’t it great to be an adult?
But I like being a child better. I’m under their protection, and I don’t have to earn money.
But I like being an adult, so I can spend money on whatever I want, because I earned it myself.
So it’s the opposite. Sometimes I think, yeah, I’m an adult, and I can buy whatever I want, so it’s a…
Tradeoff.
Yes!
A little I want to grow up, and I don’t want to grow up.
That’s because you’re still in school and people still can tell you what to do or not.
I think you’re right. I’m so used obeying criteria, so I’m a little afraid of making my own decisions.
Yeah, you know when I got my first job, I just thought, oh my god, I’m free now. I make my own money, I pay my own way, I’m free!
Is that because you didn’t live with your parents? Because I have my own job…
Yes. Moving out is a wonderful thing.
Exactly. My dad is always complaining that I’m watching TV. I thought about getting a TV for my room, but there’s no cable line. Ugh! You need cable!
I think that you can watch cable TV on the internet right now. The resolution is a little bad though.
Yes, but if your ADSL speed is too slow, though…
I think the point is that if there’s a lot more people watching with you, it’s faster.
Faster? Why?
Because they’re sharing the bandwidth.
So you do that a lot?
I watch live sports events. But actually I don’t watch a lot of TV lately.
Good!
I think I’m just tired of watching TV.
Well, the internet is a worse timewaster. In TV, you have to wait for your program to come on, but…
But going back, I think that for parents, they always think you’re their kids, even if you’re 40.
It’s so true.
Is it true that in the US, 18 year olds hate to be told to be careful?
Not just 18 year olds—anybody. Even a six year old hates that.
You know, when a mom says that, it’s a little like, they don’t trust me. Just like once I wanted to invest in stock market, but my mother turned to very angry, and she just said, I have invest for you, so why do want to invest by yourself?
Well, that’s different from my mom, that my mom push me to invest. I think the main reason is that she doesn’t trust my dad.
(Everyone laughs)
She doesn’t trust your dad what?
Well, he reads a lot of Warren Buffet stuff, but he’s terrible! When I started understanding what he was doing, I was like, what are you doing wasting your time reading those books?
So your dad invests?
Well, my mom is busier than my dad, so my dad helps her with the family finances, but he’s terrible.
So your mom encourage you to do it?
Yeah, because she thought I would be more reasonable. But I still think that, when we grow older, parents just look like distractions. Just like you say, when you grow older you want to fly high and do bigger things, and your parents become kind of a distraction. Or even kind of a big stone stop you. I just hope if I become a parent some day, I won’t control them too much. Because I think that when people protect their kids too much, it makes them mediocre. Usually I told my mom, that you guys were great parents and good educators before we were 15, but not anymore, because if my brother and I take your suggestions now, we won’t be able to completely show our talents. So I think kids should leave their family earlier, before 25. If you leave too late, after 30, it’s no good. That’s why I said that from the educational side, grandmothers, it’s good for the kids, they don’t know much about the world, and they have to learn discipline and stuff. But when you grow older, just like it said, it’s modern society, they’re not equipped with the knowledge or tools which is for this century. If you can learn all their tools, which they could use to survive in the 70s, or 80s, that’s a different story.
But sometimes, grandmothers might know how children might behave in certain cases. For example, one of my neighbors, she is a grandmother, she recently complained how her son educate her grandson. Because her son likes to ride motorcycle very fast. And will bring his grandson with.
Oh, dangerous!
So one day, she found her grandson ride his bike very fast, and jump down and said, “I win”. But she’s so opposed in the first place.
So probably she can buy him a helmet.
Who?
The kid.
But both think she or her son should teach her grandson you shouldn’t ride so fast, even she put on the helmet.
But my point is, the kid could ride fast, but it depends on the occasion. Just that it’s not appropriate for him to ride fast on the road or sidewalk, but if there are specific roads for bicycles, it’s okay.
If he’s careful of the other people ion the road.
My advice is, send him to motor GP, and he will know how dangerous.
What’s motor GP?
It’s like formula 500 for motorcycles, so he can see how dangerous it is.
But her son is only 4 or 5 years old.
I really think it’s just location dependent. I think you can’t really tell him you should not ride it fast on the sidewalk or road. But if there are other places, like motor gp, then he can.
Getting back to our discussion, I think that there’s something interesting, that a mother’s mother…
Yeah yeah yeah, that was an interesting point.
The mother’s mother was better at helping the kids survive.
Why not the father's mother?
Well, it’s in the article.
Why?
Well, I’m not pretty sure, because the coincidence was that I’m raised by my maternal grandmother, I didn’t know my paternal grandmother.
Is that true for anyone else?
Well, my mother’s mother died pretty early, so I have no memories of her.
But it sounds like your father’s mother took really good care of you.
Yes, I respect her, and I want to be like her. Because she travel almost the whole Taiwan. And when she lived with us, she can take care of her self, wash her clothes, etc, and she never intervene the affairs between the family
Oh, smart of her!
Yes.
I’m also raised by father’s mother. The paternal grandmother. The reason that my paternal grandmother raise me is my maternal grandmother think I am too annoying for my second uncle. Because he is studying, and I’m crying, because I’m a baby. And my maternal grandmother think I’m too annoying, so she told my mother to send me to my grandmother. And from I am a one-years baby, my grandmother raise me till I am 12.
How far away did she live from your family?
My paternal grandmother live in Chaiyi, and my maternal grandmother live in Kaoshiung.
Where did your family live?
Taipei! So I am running around between three cities. But for a child, I think it’s fun.
Probably because you were loved in all three places.
But when I grew up, I think my maternal grandmother’s treat me nice, better than when I was a baby.
Are you the oldest child?
Did she raise anybody after you?
Yes, my sister is raised by her. Because she said my mother want to send my sister to my paternal grandmother, but she said she had no energy to raise the second child, so my maternal grandmother have to raise my sister.
So is there a great difference between you and your sister?
No, we have almost the same character.
And the same behavior? And values?
Behavior, yes, values, not exactly the same, but similar. The thinking mode of my sister and I is very similar, even the voice. We have similar character. It’s very interesting, because she lived in Kaohsiung, I lived in Chaiyi, but we’re so similar. I don’t know how to describe, when we grow up, we found we have similar voice, similar character and value.
And what about your grandmothers?
I think I’m closer to my paternal grandmom, because she stayed with us when I was little, I don’t know how long, but she had three sons, so she would take turns, so when she came to stay with us, I was six or seven years old, she would buy things I like, and a lot of food, when we went to traditional market, especially. And watching TV together, she would like look at me while I was watching.
So she really loved you.
Well, she didn’t have too much to do at that time.
How about your maternal grandma?
I don’t have that much experience that we are close together, maybe because we didn’t live together. But I think my auntie’s more like my mom, because I was raised by her, because my mom was busy at the time. That’s why I think your grandma doesn’t have to be your real grandma. Because when she cared for me, her kids were already like 20 something.
My father always complained my grandfather, because my grandfather always treat me nice. I think Taiwanese grandfather always get involved with their grandson.
But you’re a granddaughter.
Well, yes.
My paternal grandfather died 20 years before I was born. But my maternal grandfather liked me a lot more than my brother, because my performance in school was great. My brother’s smarter than me, actually, but he doesn’t care about schoolwork, so he doesn’t perform as well. He’s not a traditional kid, he doesn’t obey the rules, so my grandfather doesn’t like him as much as me. So I was really sad when he passed away, I think it was my 18 years old. My mom told me I was like the representative, because there are four grandchildren of him, my brother, my two cousins, and I, and my mom said that my grandfather loves me the most, because of that. But I think the best memory of him, was that he was the guard of a textile company in Tainan, and I live with them at that time, and one day, you know what the guards do, they have to go to every checkpoint, to record that they checked it, and I got to go with him. I was five years old, so I just went with him. When the mission ended, we went to his like, employees restaurant to have an ice-cream. And I remember that. And I got a cold the next day. Getting a cold is kind of serious stuff when I was small, and I remember my grandmother yelling at my grandfather about that, but it was a fun memory. I think the point is that I’m not very familiar with my father. I’m familiar with my mother, and my grandparents. My father worked in Taipei, and we lived together in Tainan. So I think the point is I would do my best to get to know my son, because if you don’t play or work with them when they are small, they will know you are their father, but they won’t know you. I lived with my grandparents, but I didn’t learn Taiwanese.
That’s really interesting, and you were in Tainan, of all places?
And my mother spoke Taiwanese with them. So I think the funny part is, I can understand what they’re saying, but I can’t speak.
So you speak Chinese to your grandparents, and they speak Taiwanese to you.
Yes, because their Chinese skills are limited, and my Taiwanese is limited. But we could understand. Also, when they speak to me in Taiwanese, they don’t require a response from me.
My paternal grandfather and mother learned Chinese so hard, so they can speak Chinese with their grandchildren, so all of us don’t speak Taiwanese.
But I think learning the mother tongue helps you to understand the culture. So even though I can’t speak it too well, I try to expose myself to it, and ask what words mean, and why they speak like that.
I always laugh at my sister’s Taiwanese.
So they didn’t speak Taiwanese with her in Kaoshiung?
I speak Taiwanese better than my classmates!
I grew up in three places, so my Taiwanese is merged! But my Taiwanese is similar to Beigang, because that’s where my grandparents are from. So I have a Beigang accent. But I have several words I use in kaoshiung accent.
So it’s really common for Taiwan?
Yes.
You mentioned grandfathers in Taiwan really like getting involved in raising children.
Yes, because they’re retired, and watching TV is boring, and they want to get involved.
I think that’s amazing, that’s not something you think of.
Okay, shall we start?
Yes.
I’m team b, because I think that old people they have their, like, life experience about different things, and they know better than young people, and because they are grandmothers, and they love their grandkids, and so they want to take care of them. Maybe not just grandmom, just someone they are close to, and they will play that kind of role to them.
I also choose team b, because I think grandma play an important role of child-raising and they also contribute to the housework, and share the burden from mothers in each family. So I choose team b. Oh, they also have a lot experience in life.
Well, I’m not pretty sure if my grandmother have a lot of experiences in life, but grandmothers are the best of taking care of children, basically, the most important reason, basically, it’s kind of that they’ve learned a lot from raising our mother or father. I don’t know why, probably because those grandmothers, when mothers turn to grandmothers, they have lots of chances to exchange experiences with other mothers and grandmothers, makes them more knowledgeable, so this makes them better. Children brought up by grandmothers are ‘white and fat’. Like they say.
I agree with the article, that they have better survival.
Basically I think grandmothers know lots of details that mothers don’t know. And the mothers learn this 30 years later, for their grandkids.
So are you team b or team e?
I’m team b. I think the important part is not teaching children things. Usually that is affected by their traditional values, not pretty sure, it’s not all positive from the educational side, but they’re simply the best for taking care, on the survival side, to promote the probability of survival.
I’m also team b. And they all…the answer of team b, is just like you, because the grandmother has lots of information and knowledge about life and survival, and so, I think team b. Thank you! Thank you!
So we’re all team B. What do we talk about
Maybe I can provide an example with my grandma and me. Most grandmother only focus on raising their grandchildren, but I learned a lot of discipline from my daily life with my grandma. She asked me to make my bed when I get up, and also asked me to clean the table when I finished eating. So I learned a lot. What she taught me had a great influence on my personality.
Your mother didn’t make you do that?
My mother only focus on my homework, and how I behave in school.
Education!
Yeah yeah yeah, but not about…
…daily life!
Yeah. And also I like my grandma, because she help me a lot in some kind of home work, like sewing clothes or dolls, like that.
My grandma always gave us ice cream, cookies and soda, all at the same time. We could have as much as we wanted. That was so not what we were allowed at home! It’s how I learned that ice cream and cookies are good, and soda and ice cream is good, and cookies and soda are good, but all three together will make you sick.
But you know, I could have learned that as an adult, too, because if I wanted now to eat all three at the same time, I still could.
Isn’t it great to be an adult?
But I like being a child better. I’m under their protection, and I don’t have to earn money.
But I like being an adult, so I can spend money on whatever I want, because I earned it myself.
So it’s the opposite. Sometimes I think, yeah, I’m an adult, and I can buy whatever I want, so it’s a…
Tradeoff.
Yes!
A little I want to grow up, and I don’t want to grow up.
That’s because you’re still in school and people still can tell you what to do or not.
I think you’re right. I’m so used obeying criteria, so I’m a little afraid of making my own decisions.
Yeah, you know when I got my first job, I just thought, oh my god, I’m free now. I make my own money, I pay my own way, I’m free!
Is that because you didn’t live with your parents? Because I have my own job…
Yes. Moving out is a wonderful thing.
Exactly. My dad is always complaining that I’m watching TV. I thought about getting a TV for my room, but there’s no cable line. Ugh! You need cable!
I think that you can watch cable TV on the internet right now. The resolution is a little bad though.
Yes, but if your ADSL speed is too slow, though…
I think the point is that if there’s a lot more people watching with you, it’s faster.
Faster? Why?
Because they’re sharing the bandwidth.
So you do that a lot?
I watch live sports events. But actually I don’t watch a lot of TV lately.
Good!
I think I’m just tired of watching TV.
Well, the internet is a worse timewaster. In TV, you have to wait for your program to come on, but…
But going back, I think that for parents, they always think you’re their kids, even if you’re 40.
It’s so true.
Is it true that in the US, 18 year olds hate to be told to be careful?
Not just 18 year olds—anybody. Even a six year old hates that.
You know, when a mom says that, it’s a little like, they don’t trust me. Just like once I wanted to invest in stock market, but my mother turned to very angry, and she just said, I have invest for you, so why do want to invest by yourself?
Well, that’s different from my mom, that my mom push me to invest. I think the main reason is that she doesn’t trust my dad.
(Everyone laughs)
She doesn’t trust your dad what?
Well, he reads a lot of Warren Buffet stuff, but he’s terrible! When I started understanding what he was doing, I was like, what are you doing wasting your time reading those books?
So your dad invests?
Well, my mom is busier than my dad, so my dad helps her with the family finances, but he’s terrible.
So your mom encourage you to do it?
Yeah, because she thought I would be more reasonable. But I still think that, when we grow older, parents just look like distractions. Just like you say, when you grow older you want to fly high and do bigger things, and your parents become kind of a distraction. Or even kind of a big stone stop you. I just hope if I become a parent some day, I won’t control them too much. Because I think that when people protect their kids too much, it makes them mediocre. Usually I told my mom, that you guys were great parents and good educators before we were 15, but not anymore, because if my brother and I take your suggestions now, we won’t be able to completely show our talents. So I think kids should leave their family earlier, before 25. If you leave too late, after 30, it’s no good. That’s why I said that from the educational side, grandmothers, it’s good for the kids, they don’t know much about the world, and they have to learn discipline and stuff. But when you grow older, just like it said, it’s modern society, they’re not equipped with the knowledge or tools which is for this century. If you can learn all their tools, which they could use to survive in the 70s, or 80s, that’s a different story.
But sometimes, grandmothers might know how children might behave in certain cases. For example, one of my neighbors, she is a grandmother, she recently complained how her son educate her grandson. Because her son likes to ride motorcycle very fast. And will bring his grandson with.
Oh, dangerous!
So one day, she found her grandson ride his bike very fast, and jump down and said, “I win”. But she’s so opposed in the first place.
So probably she can buy him a helmet.
Who?
The kid.
But both think she or her son should teach her grandson you shouldn’t ride so fast, even she put on the helmet.
But my point is, the kid could ride fast, but it depends on the occasion. Just that it’s not appropriate for him to ride fast on the road or sidewalk, but if there are specific roads for bicycles, it’s okay.
If he’s careful of the other people ion the road.
My advice is, send him to motor GP, and he will know how dangerous.
What’s motor GP?
It’s like formula 500 for motorcycles, so he can see how dangerous it is.
But her son is only 4 or 5 years old.
I really think it’s just location dependent. I think you can’t really tell him you should not ride it fast on the sidewalk or road. But if there are other places, like motor gp, then he can.
Getting back to our discussion, I think that there’s something interesting, that a mother’s mother…
Yeah yeah yeah, that was an interesting point.
The mother’s mother was better at helping the kids survive.
Why not the father's mother?
Well, it’s in the article.
Why?
Well, I’m not pretty sure, because the coincidence was that I’m raised by my maternal grandmother, I didn’t know my paternal grandmother.
Is that true for anyone else?
Well, my mother’s mother died pretty early, so I have no memories of her.
But it sounds like your father’s mother took really good care of you.
Yes, I respect her, and I want to be like her. Because she travel almost the whole Taiwan. And when she lived with us, she can take care of her self, wash her clothes, etc, and she never intervene the affairs between the family
Oh, smart of her!
Yes.
I’m also raised by father’s mother. The paternal grandmother. The reason that my paternal grandmother raise me is my maternal grandmother think I am too annoying for my second uncle. Because he is studying, and I’m crying, because I’m a baby. And my maternal grandmother think I’m too annoying, so she told my mother to send me to my grandmother. And from I am a one-years baby, my grandmother raise me till I am 12.
How far away did she live from your family?
My paternal grandmother live in Chaiyi, and my maternal grandmother live in Kaoshiung.
Where did your family live?
Taipei! So I am running around between three cities. But for a child, I think it’s fun.
Probably because you were loved in all three places.
But when I grew up, I think my maternal grandmother’s treat me nice, better than when I was a baby.
Are you the oldest child?
Did she raise anybody after you?
Yes, my sister is raised by her. Because she said my mother want to send my sister to my paternal grandmother, but she said she had no energy to raise the second child, so my maternal grandmother have to raise my sister.
So is there a great difference between you and your sister?
No, we have almost the same character.
And the same behavior? And values?
Behavior, yes, values, not exactly the same, but similar. The thinking mode of my sister and I is very similar, even the voice. We have similar character. It’s very interesting, because she lived in Kaohsiung, I lived in Chaiyi, but we’re so similar. I don’t know how to describe, when we grow up, we found we have similar voice, similar character and value.
And what about your grandmothers?
I think I’m closer to my paternal grandmom, because she stayed with us when I was little, I don’t know how long, but she had three sons, so she would take turns, so when she came to stay with us, I was six or seven years old, she would buy things I like, and a lot of food, when we went to traditional market, especially. And watching TV together, she would like look at me while I was watching.
So she really loved you.
Well, she didn’t have too much to do at that time.
How about your maternal grandma?
I don’t have that much experience that we are close together, maybe because we didn’t live together. But I think my auntie’s more like my mom, because I was raised by her, because my mom was busy at the time. That’s why I think your grandma doesn’t have to be your real grandma. Because when she cared for me, her kids were already like 20 something.
My father always complained my grandfather, because my grandfather always treat me nice. I think Taiwanese grandfather always get involved with their grandson.
But you’re a granddaughter.
Well, yes.
My paternal grandfather died 20 years before I was born. But my maternal grandfather liked me a lot more than my brother, because my performance in school was great. My brother’s smarter than me, actually, but he doesn’t care about schoolwork, so he doesn’t perform as well. He’s not a traditional kid, he doesn’t obey the rules, so my grandfather doesn’t like him as much as me. So I was really sad when he passed away, I think it was my 18 years old. My mom told me I was like the representative, because there are four grandchildren of him, my brother, my two cousins, and I, and my mom said that my grandfather loves me the most, because of that. But I think the best memory of him, was that he was the guard of a textile company in Tainan, and I live with them at that time, and one day, you know what the guards do, they have to go to every checkpoint, to record that they checked it, and I got to go with him. I was five years old, so I just went with him. When the mission ended, we went to his like, employees restaurant to have an ice-cream. And I remember that. And I got a cold the next day. Getting a cold is kind of serious stuff when I was small, and I remember my grandmother yelling at my grandfather about that, but it was a fun memory. I think the point is that I’m not very familiar with my father. I’m familiar with my mother, and my grandparents. My father worked in Taipei, and we lived together in Tainan. So I think the point is I would do my best to get to know my son, because if you don’t play or work with them when they are small, they will know you are their father, but they won’t know you. I lived with my grandparents, but I didn’t learn Taiwanese.
That’s really interesting, and you were in Tainan, of all places?
And my mother spoke Taiwanese with them. So I think the funny part is, I can understand what they’re saying, but I can’t speak.
So you speak Chinese to your grandparents, and they speak Taiwanese to you.
Yes, because their Chinese skills are limited, and my Taiwanese is limited. But we could understand. Also, when they speak to me in Taiwanese, they don’t require a response from me.
My paternal grandfather and mother learned Chinese so hard, so they can speak Chinese with their grandchildren, so all of us don’t speak Taiwanese.
But I think learning the mother tongue helps you to understand the culture. So even though I can’t speak it too well, I try to expose myself to it, and ask what words mean, and why they speak like that.
I always laugh at my sister’s Taiwanese.
So they didn’t speak Taiwanese with her in Kaoshiung?
I speak Taiwanese better than my classmates!
I grew up in three places, so my Taiwanese is merged! But my Taiwanese is similar to Beigang, because that’s where my grandparents are from. So I have a Beigang accent. But I have several words I use in kaoshiung accent.
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